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The problem is alert attribution. A mere alert state elevation, e.g., the guard seeing non-player enemy, should NOT count towards the player's Stealth Score! Don't do that! If the stealth score registration applies only to guards seeing absence markers, then I think there are good arguments on both sides whether a guard alert should register against the player. It's in a similar category as AI seeing blood, bodies, and weapons. But in this case I think it's okay to count to the stealth score because other AI can kill other AI, but other AI do not steal, so unlike the other examples, the absence marker is uniquely the player's fault in the game. So making only that count to the stealth score is fair I think. But yes, some bark or other indication would also be fair. Re: the proposal for the spawnarg for guard's noticing loot being removed, I think it should not be removed IMO because now you're directly contradiction a design decision made by an author. You can criticize the author and say that's a stupid mechanic, sure, or there are cases where there are bugs and the design intention isn't be followed that should be fixed to meet the intention, but I think intentional design decisions that work as intended should never be changed because authors should have absolute autonomy over their own design. Edit: Informing authors that that mechanic can ruin ghosting runs, which many players value, and then leaving it up to them to decide whether or not to change it for that reason, that's a valid thing to try to do IMO, as long as its the author's final decision what to do. Edit2: There is an argument there to leave it alone too. It punishes the player by putting the guard on alert to create more challenge, but it doesn't count to the stealth score so people can still do ghosting runs & be validated for them according to traditional ghosting rules, which have never counted stolen loot to a ghosting bust. So that's the argument to tolerate guards going on alert seeing stolen loot but it not counting to the stealth score. And it's a good argument IMO, since the stealth score has always been linked to people caring about ghosting attempts, or how close they can get to it, and it follows the rules better. Don't fix what isn't broken.

I suggest you use the term "I", to make clear that it is something YOU want, and that you speak for yourself. But, as wesp5 mentioned, I don't really know what this is about, at all. And, I'm also wondering about all the newly registered people lately, who just arrived at this forum, and already want to revolutionize this mod. This is a thing I noticed 2 or 3 years ago, and which hasn't been present in the 15 years I play this mod and frequent these forums now. Really seems like a common thing these days, to not knock on the door, but kick it in, and stomp right in.

TDM has tons of textures from "free" texture resources that do not allow redistribution and cannot be incorporated into a commercial project. Someone would need to create a huge replacement pack of textures that do not break the look of existing missions and do not infringe on the copyrighted textures. Also, many artists who contributed to this project do not want 3rd party entities to use their work in commercial projects. They intended the models, textures, sounds, animations to be exclusively used for Darkmod content. You would either have to replace ALL assets or contact every contributor and ask them to re-license their assets. Many contributors are no longer active with the project and haven't visited the forums in years so it would be no easy feat. I cannot speak to Debian policy but I think that they treat installers that add non-free content the same as non-free content itself. One could argue that Steam is such an installer but I guess Debian would counter that there are a few fully Libre games on Steam. I think Debian, Ubuntu, or Linux Mint need to consider a repo that allows for games (etc) that include non-libre content but intentionally offer this content for free to the community with no stipulations other than "don't try to sell it as a product".

The gamepad implementation allows for a great degree of flexibility to personalize settings, aside from a few minor issues that I mentioned here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22337-gamepad-bindings/ I would say that playing TDM with a gamepad works very well, especially considering that it was implemented as experimental and hasn't been changed since then. If I could, I'd go back to 2021-you and congratulate you on buying that gamepad. I notice that your DarkmodPadbinds.cfg looks very different from mine...

Thanks! 1) Doing LONG_PRESS PAD_A (what I, for lack of knowledge, call "jump-mantle" or "_jumpmantle") differs from doing PRESS PAD_A ("_jump"). "_jumpmantle" differs from "_mantle", so they must be mapped to different button-calls. "_jumpmantle" differs from "_jump", so they must also be mapped to different button-calls. This appears to be the case, but it is not evident (or changeable) in DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. "_jumpmantle" seems to be hard coded to always connect to the same button as "_jump" but with a long press. It is as if bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" is not actually just binding PRESS PAD_A to "_jump", but rather interpreted as "link PAD_A (regardless of button press time) to behave exactly like keyboard SPACE for short and long presses". I would have expected the default DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to explicitly read: bindPadButton PRESS PAD_A "_jump" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_A "_jumpmantle" bindPadButton PRESS PAD_B "_crouch" bindPadButton LONG_PRESS PAD_B "_mantle" ... but neither LONG_PRESS PAD_A or "_jumpmantle" is listed in the file. If there are actions "_jump" and "_mantle", I suppose there must also be an action "_jumpmantle" since it is possible for the player to do all those movements: * "_mantle" does the movements "crouch on the high surface, then stand up" * "_jumpmantle" idoes the movements "jump slightly forward, then land standing on the high surface" * "_jump" idoes the movements "jump up, then land exactly where you started" If the actions "_jump" and "_moveup" are not synonymous, then perhaps the action "_moveup" is what i call "_jumpmantle"? 2) Thanks for the link! It was useful in more than one way. I'll link to that page from https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Bindings_and_User_Settings#Gamepad_Default_Bindings if I can get an account on the wiki, which proved more difficult than i thought (https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22327-how-can-i-create-an-account-on-the-tdm-wiki/). However, it does not answer my question how to find out the name ("<button>") used for a button on my gamepad. Basically, I would need to press the button on my gamepad and some program could tell me "That button is called 'PAD_A'". In my case, I have a gamepad "Logitech F310" (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Logitech_F310_Gamepad.jpg) which has a "Logitech button" (see image) that I want to use. I was hoping to find out the "button name" for that button and then edit DarkmodPadbinds.cfg to map it to a function. 3) ... but if that button has an "unusual name" that TDM does not recognize, then it may perhaps not work. E.g. if that button is called "PAD_LOGITECH" and TDM cannot recognize that name, then I cannot map anything to it via DarkmodPadbinds.cfg. Using QJoyPad I can map any keyboard key to it instead, as a workaround, but I cannot map MODIFIER to it (since MODIFIER cannot be set to a keyboard key). If current implementation is still called "experimental", then I must say it works very well; @cabalistic: kudos for that! I may not have continued playing TDM had it not worked with a gamepad.

I don't see a lot of stealth gameplay either. The graphics are alright, no issue with that. Guess I'll buy it.

I probably shouldn't have watched this. I imagined Stephen Russell a bit different. In my imagination he looked more closely to Neil Gaiman. Game seems a bit too simplistic from the footage. I don't see much stealth gameplay and the graphics look bad.

Sorry, you were asking for Thief mods in which case AngelLoader does support mods. I don't know if a Stealth Monitor exists for Thief 1 or 2.

It is possible that this is a setting that needs to be activated to work: https://mantisbt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23221

-:- BEYOND THE MODPACK -:- Let's list here other tools and mods available for TDM. Candidates are supposed to have a degree of completeness, provide some value to players, and work with TDM without much effort. Are we missing anything? Speak up! Refer to the TDM Wiki for an additional list of add-ons. TDM 2.12 introduces Multi-addons support and some mods may not yet be ready for 2.12 but everything will eventually get updated, I am sure. ALL: please use the dedicated topics to comment and/or contact the authors! Do not do it here. Modders: if you don't want your tool/mod listed here, or if you want your tool/mod presented differently, please contact me here or via private message. ~ AngelLoader Credits: FenPhoenix Description: [...] AngelLoader is a standalone fan mission loader for Thief 1, Thief 2, Thief 3, System Shock 2, and The Dark Mod. Unlike FMSel, which requires a separate copy for each game, AngelLoader allows you to manage and play all your FMs in one place. [...] Topic: AngelLoader TDM Support (now released!) GitHub: AngelLoader ~ Unofficial Patch Credits: wesp5 (and other contributors) Description: [...] This patch adds several small improvements to the main game which in my opinion make gameplay more realistic and fun, sometimes easier as well, and it also brings some order to the downloaded missions list! [...] Topic: Unofficial Patch ModDB: The Dark Mod Unofficial Patch ~ Fresnel Mod Credits: nbohr1more Description: [...] It enhances the 3D depth of scenes and makes metals, wood, and skin look more realistic [...] Topic: TDM Fresnel Mod ModDB: Fresnel Mod 2.12 ( Unofficial ) ~ Flame Glare Mod Credits: nbohr1more Description: Wanna have beautiful glows with your Torches and Flames? Look no further! Topic: A little experiment with Fire glares... ModDB: Flame Glare Mod ~ Augmentation Mod Credits: MirceaKitsune Description: [...] an addon that implements detailed player functionality, inspired by the first DeusEx game (The Conspiracy) [...] Topic: Script: Per limb damage, skill system (WIP) ~ Wearable disguises Credits: MirceaKitsune Description: [...] The player can pick up headwear and equip by using the item, making you a member of the target team when active. [...] Topic: Mod: Wearable disguises ~ Alternative Footstep Sound Package Credits: SeriousToni Description: [...] If you like to try an alternative set of footstep sounds [...] Topic: New Footstep sounds ~ Railway Lamp Credits: Obsttorte, Dragofer, Goldwell, Amadeus, snatcher (and probably others) Description: First person view (like a weapon) Railway lamp / lantern for the player. Topic: Player Lamp (beta) ~ Adjust player speed with mouse wheel Credits: Obsttorte, snatcher Description: Proof of concept for adjusting the player speed with the mouse wheel using the external app AutoHotkey. Post: Adjust player speed with mouse wheel ~ Stealth Statistics Tool Credits: Dragofer (and other contributors) Description: [...] you will start every FM with a scroll called "Stealth Statistics" in your inventory, which you can "read" to show a small message with current stealth statistics [...] Post: View Stealth Score during gameplay? ModDB: Dragofer's Stealth Statistic Tool ~ Loot Stealth Stats Credits: kcghost Description: [...] overrides the loot inventory gui and associated script. I got rid of the loot breakdown (jewels, gold, etc.) as well as the loot icon that appears (didn't look right next to longer text). Instead it displays a stealth breakdown and total loot out of the mission's available loot. Suspicions, Searches, Sightings, Bodies, Score, Loot [...] Post: View Stealth Score during gameplay?

I am going to sort-of reveal that this is loosely like the nature of my upcoming mission. I noted it here when JackFarmer asked about things that are coming along in this post: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/profile/37993-jackfarmer/&status=3943&type=status It too is a builder church. The player is requested by a hopefully famous character in another mission to handle some business that is affecting the congregation. I am looking to invoke some info and history laid down in other missions as a hook story.

I created the page: https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Lightgem In the source I placed the following text: <!-- Page text made by forum user Fiver: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22327-how-can-i-create-an-account-on-the-tdm-wiki/&do=findComment&comment=491145 --> Personally I think the page isn't really necessary because the info is already present under HUD.

Played Grounded difficulty a couple of times and could not get past the school in Bill's town. My first attempt I got stuck on first entry into the school. I couldn't sight the bow properly and I now think that was a glitch or a setting I couldn't figure out because this second attempt it worked normally. Oddly, whereas in easier levels I seem to get two uses out of each arrow, in Grounded it seems randomised and a new arrow might get 1 to 3 (more?) uses. I definitely got three uses. Anyway, this first area in the school took a lot of stealth takedowns every one of which needed a lot of trial and error because of the need to preserve ammo etc for the Bloater in the next area - and that's where I'm stuck. In lower levels, I always enter the gym with 3 nail bombs, 3 molotovs, and plenty of shotgun shells. I'd typically lob all or most of the bombs and molotovs at the Bloater right at the start and then run round like hell waiting an opportunity to blast it with the shotgun. In Grounded, despite HUGE effort to preserve resources, all I have left is 1 nail bomb, 1 molotov, and 6 shotgun shells. I also have just enough resources to make EITHER a health pack OR another molotov. That's when I discovered my health was near-zero! I gave it a lot of thought and decided I'd have to restore my health. So 1 bomb and 1 molotov. I knew this wouldn't work. Sure enough, I ran out of ammo pretty quick and died from a single hit. Has anyone ever got past this scene with 1 bomb and 1 molotov (on ANY level?) Presumably it must be possible because it seems impossible on Grounded to ever get enough resources to have more than 1 bomb (the one Bill gave me) and maybe 2 molotovs (the first one found on a corpse.) Believe me, I scrape the barrel for resources in EVERY scene and there is almost NOTHING anywhere! Every single bullet is precious. And almost no shivs so none ever to spare to open doors so how much resources did I miss that way? All I can think of is a crazy race run perfectly and never taking a hit and hoping to pick up dozens of shotgun shells from bare-fist punching of runners. This sounds near-impossible. (Although Bill did finally get off his fat arse and kill 4 infected in the final surge outside just before climbing that bus to get in the school. (I did that by racing around madly for a long time then suddenly forced to bare-fist a runner I was astonished to find it was the last one!) Maybe if I could survive by running round the gym he'd take down the Bloater? There are far more difficult battles beyond this so I doubt I'll bother.

This is a really nice mission. It's just the right size and difficulty, looks great, and the mission objectives provide plenty of challenge without being obtuse. The manor seemed to be absolutely swarming with guards but there were always opportunities to slip by if you were a bit patient. I finished on the hardest difficulty with a perfect stealth score and about 1800/2024 loot.

Its not that people are dismissing the game because of lack of shouldering, but rather a combination of things. That would be a real argument that the following occurs; 1. People don't know how to keep from making noise when moving stuff around (holding creep). 2. People don't know when black jacking works and when it doesn't (general options menu toggle). 3. Blackjack hits overhead stone overhead archway or wooden foundation (was fixed). 4. Picking up a blackjacked guard should be easy and players should know how to do it right away (new). 5. Not know how to extinguish candles and lanterns (easier and new). 6. Not knowing about general gameplay tips specific to missions (new). 7. Not being able to use favorite addons together (new). 8. Being able to know how much loot is left in a mission and mission stats like stealth score mid mission to properly ghost w/o too much spent on replaying parts of a mission (pending and in a addon). 9. Guards either searching for the noise disturbance for too long, or giving up too quickly and thus making some small missions either really tough for small mistakes or far too easy to get through (difficulty changes proposed by some). Many of these are not fixable without a global tip system for first time players, a expanded tutorial mission, and quality of life changes (a general gameplay change is not always about accessibility, options and cvars exist for that reason, but sometimes its about making it so that a button press should do what most players intentions aim to do, 95% of the time.

Yeah, we agree. I am not criticizing that alert X is Y points. Y must be something and it is what it is. Getting "seen" could perfectly have a bigger impact, to encourage players not to be seen - in example - and drastically decrease the score, but this is a different topic altogether. What matters is that the Stealth score remains consistent across missions and among all difficulty levels, which is the case. A different story though is whether the difficulty settings (AI Vision, AI hearing) should play any role or not. I think it all comes down to how the first page is presented, which feels kind of unfocused and therefore dull, and the second page doesn't improve things much. By having the "Mission Score" I propose players will normally always get a positive outcome based on facts. The outcome. The Stealth Score implementation and perception is arbitrary and subjective and perhaps it doesn't deserve much focus not to confuse players. I haven't thought about the Stealth Score and all the variables much and I don't have any suggestion other than a negative "Ghosting Score".

I am 100% on board with optional bonus challenges (mutators) you can activate before launching an FM. Could be a nice project for me for 2.13. As posted in the "Hazard Pay" thread, my idea for a save restriction mutator is that you pay for each save with some resource like a water arrow or a health potion. Something that hurts, to make players who seek the tension think twice about saving. Another mutator idea was "Ghost", i.e., mission fails as soon as stealth score turns non-zero and blackjacking is disabled. I wonder why everybody jumped on the save restriction topic, instead of this mutator, which would be really useful for quite a few players, wouldn't it?

As probably no one will dare to suggest it if i don't, i do it: Cyberpunk 2077 with Realistic Combat Overhaul (i also use 230+ other mods, but i might be a mod hoarder and you definitely can have a good stealth shooter experience with less than 30 mods) Obviously, that game isn't pure. You probably can ghost your way through a lot of the missions. But if you actually want to play nonleathal, you better play something else. Where it shines, is the world building and gameplay. You get a shit ton of exploration, a pretty diverse set of side missions some with exceptionally good story writing. And you can play most of it as a stealth game. While it is immersive, it isn't really a sim though. You can't use the environment in unexpected ways apart from some verticality (and even more verticality with mods). So yeah, it is more like Deus Ex if it where open world (world opens up after first main quest). But stealth was meant to be a viable option in the base game and with mods it actually is. P.S.: Also the two Styx games - they actually are hardcore stealth. And Arx Fatalis (ugly but aged better than thief).

So, I've got a confession to make: Up until recently, I hadn't really played a full FM in quite some time as I only did the occasional playtesting. I am currently trying to catch up and boy did I miss some gems! This FM is one of them and easily one of my all-time favorites. The save-system on expert combined with the incredible athmosphere of your mission created a tension I haven't felt in a Thief-style game in a long, long time. Thank you, thank you, thank you and bravo @kingsal. TDM and its mappers have really come a long way, competing high up there with commercial productions. Your FM inspired me in two ways: At one point, I died due to my character not jumping off a slope, eventhough I felt like I pressed jump at the right time. I think everybody of us knows this issue and you always have this kind of in the back of your head that you don't jump when the ground is not perfectly even. This failed jump was of course very annoying due to the saving constraints, so I instantly started thinking how we could solve this. There's a technique known primarily from platformers but also from FPS like Doom Eternal, and that technique is called "Coyote Time". It allows the player to jump for some short timespan after leaving a platform. We should maybe explore something similar for TDM, to make jumping off slopes more reliable. We have to be careful to not allow the player to cross further distances this way of course. I loved the save restriction and the tension it create so much, that I want more of it. I started to brainstorm and remembered the optional game mutators from Unreal back in the day. These mutators allowed you to enable extra challenges or modified physics etc. for your game. Coming back to the save restriction, a respective mutator for TDM could be that each savegame costs some resource. Some resource that hurts, like a water arrow or a health potion, to make the player think twice about saving. A mutator like that would honestly be my default play-setting, I think. Other obvious mutators could be "Ghost" (missions fails as soon as the stealth score is non-zero and blackjacking is disabled), "Ironman" (no saves), "Strong Enemies" (enemies hit harder, have more health). I shall follow up on both of these points soon.

Prey is much less stealth focused than TDM, so hiding bodies serves much less of a purpose. Much like System Shock actually. By the way, you should also give the System Shock 1 Remake a shot. While its probably best enjoyed, if you already played the original, it's still a great game anyway.

The second Styx game is a very nice Stealth game, very similar to Thief actually (except that it's third person) and much better than the first title. I hope anyone got this game. If not, it is still on 85% sale right now.

In the first post of the other topic Geep proposed: Then Stgatilov's answer: But I think applying subtitles in different languages shouldn't be too hard I would think, but I don't know how the current translation system works. The engine should apply the correct subtitles based on the applied language setting, this doesn't need a whole new language system I think. Not sure who's going to write those subtitles though. I can only do Dutch and English and nobody needs Dutch I think. I suggest further discussion of this to take place in topic https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21741-subtitles-possibilities-beyond-211/

Styx: Shards of Darkness 100% off on GOG, less than 8 hours left https://www.gog.com/en/game/styx_shards_of_darkness https://www.gog.com/giveaway/claim It's supposedly a stealth game but the two trailers are cinematic.

After taking a gaming break for 1 week, i decided to get back into playing games yesterday especially stealth game like TDM. Coincidentally, this new fan mission appeared in the online mission archive when i was clicking "download mission" button, so I decided to download & try playing it. I like this manor/estate fan mission so far. i like the starting point of this FM where you have to venture silently into small-scale spider-infested forest. On a related note, i have sporadic spider phobia and again this mission helped me to desensitize myself to spider. I usually find the entry point to the manor disguised as a wall with loose bricks or covered with tall green grass but i have to find stone walled key for this one

If the main incentive of restricted saving is to increase tension by forcing the player to adapt to being discovered, I think the game is no longer purely a stealth game, such as Thief or TDM. Once the player is discovered, there is no more stealth involved. It's like an insta-death in a shooter. If we include power fantasies here, the stealth power fantasy is gone. Therefore, it's either a mix of genres or a new yet to be named genre. The new genre could be a "chase game," perhaps? The stealth part is a time to collect resources and put the player in a better position for the inevitable chase. The player is rewarded during the chase instead of during the stealth part. So, my question is: Are game designers actually wanting a different genre than stealth when they restrict saving?