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Three weeks since Fredham set me up on that bankjob. He said it would be an easy job, said he had an inside contact. Little did I know that they would betray me and make me take the fall. I can not say I am innocent, I tried to get into a sealed off place full of gold and here I am, locked in a small cell in a gold mine. The punishment fits the crime I guess... The story takes its beginning when the lord of earth desided to drive his fist down on this place. I can't describe it. There was just a hideous crack and the whole mountain started to shake as if the rock king decided to roll over. Three bright flashes and smouldering green smoke seeped through the air. I believe the whole mine complex have fallen asunder. Luckily my cell is still intact and I am still alive and breathing...Haven't seen the guard for a while. Maybe he succumbed to the earthquake...I hear a noise. Maybe it's the guard coming to serve me my daily crusts...But...What is this! DESCRIPTION This is my first map and it is a quite unique map, architecturally speaking and it is not meant to be realistic in all manners. It has certan unreal elements to it and some strange nooks. BUILD TIME 8 weeks KNOWN ISSUES/GOOD TO KNOW x As you start as a captive you have no equipment from the start, which means some ghosting. x All clear windows are breakable x FPS-drops at certain spots. x Sometimes ambient sounds from two different locations play simultaneously after reloding. CREDITS Henrik Swenson who's made some ambient music. Custom sounds taken from a custom sound CD, no particular name of the company. THANKS TO Fidcal - Has answered my many questions along the way. Bikerdude - Betatesting and assistance on visportaling. Also thanks to my other betatesters; Sotha, Chiron and Baddcog DOWNLOAD http://www.mediafire...nvdtk2dlr22sj9t Enjoy! /Fieldmedic EDIT! A new version is uploaded! The old version hasn't got any written version number, but this is Betrayal ver 1.1 (Unofficial undertitel: The Good Edition) (see the notes) Changes:

With TDM 2.12, after the credits finished, the "Mission Complete" screen did not display. I found that the screen was black and I could hear my footsteps when I tried to move around. I think the reason for the mission not completing successfully was that the "Do not kill or harm allies" objective was never marked as "1 = STATE_COMPLETE" instead it was left as "0 = STATE_INCOMPLETE". Note, I didn't use noclip throughout the mission. Same as: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/18054-fan-mission-the-accountant-2-new-in-town-by-goldwell-20160509/&do=findComment&comment=458491

How about using TDM automation framework (and maybe pcem/qemu)? More info see: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/19828-automation-features-and-discussion/

Beta 11 Fix finished-on state auto-update was unreliable Slighty improve scanner title/author detect Tags are now named some whatever regular-version-looking thing to force GitHub to put the newest at the top

GAMEPLAY * Frob controls have been reworked completely. Previously players were annoyed by having to do three presses to extinguish a light. Also, some player didn't even know that bodies could be shouldered and were limited with dragging bodies. Now simply clicking the frob button performs the action player needs most of the time, and pressing-and-holding the same button performs alternative actions like dragging bodies and extinguishing candles (thread). * Several aspects of mantling has been improved: overhead mantling has become faster, mantling over low obstacles is allowed while carrying an item or a body. Also it is possible to switch weapon while being on rope/ladder or mantling. Pressing crouch button on rope/ladder now starts slide-down immediately. * Some aspects of gameplay can be further simplified. Auto-search bodies is for players who don't want to waste time searching for keys and purses on guard bodies. Lockpicking "Auto" difficulty now indeed trivializes lockpicking (thread). * Leaning animation has been improved with lower head tilt (thread). * Player footstep sounds have been rebalanced. Metal and water sounds were especially painful previously. * Further improvements of subtitles: revised location and font to avoid overlapping with other GUI elements, added directional cue, better slot allocation. Each subtitle is now displayed for at least one second even if the sound is very short. * More settings to reduce camera bobbing/rolling/shaking, which is good for players who feel motion sickness from default camera animations. * Now several script addons can coexist and work independently (thread). ENGINE * Optimized generation of light-entity interactions in rendering frontend. Also greatly optimized shadow processing, especially for moving lights. Unfortunately, many existing missions are not compatible with these changes, so you might see light leaking through walls (mainly with stencil shadows). Please report all such cases, we'll apply workaround on case by case basis (thread). * The "old" and "new" rendering backends are finally merged into one. It is as nice to program as the new backend, and as old-fashioned and reliable as the old backend. Single-pass shadow maps enabled by default and now respect noselfshadow. * Materials with polygonoffset now interact with lights. So static decals can have bumpmap and specular lighting. Note however: dynamic decals still don't interact with lights. * Revised parallelSky lights and marked shadowing parallel lights as deprecated (thread). * PNG image format now behaves equally to other supported formats. In particular, it is not required to explicitly specify its extension, and it can be referenced directly in GUI code. * Added functions min/max to material expressions, which can be useful for clamping. * Fixed minor culling bugs on animated entities and enabled entity scissors by default. * Reduced color banding for fog with some dithering at tonemapping stage. * Finally our C++ code can compress and decompress all texture formats we use, meaning that we no longer depend on occasionally buggy/slow vendor implementations. BUGS * Now both OGG and WAV sounds work the same way and stop playing while in main menu. * Fixed "gui::startSelect" as a feature that allows to choose player starting location in GUI briefing. * Fixed warnings in newspaper_bridgeport0X core readable GUI. ASSETS * Added automatic turrets, to be combined with security cameras (Thread). * Added more covered furniture models (6289). * Added wall models from Seeking Lady Leicester (6293). * New and fixed versions of atdm:lamp_electric_square_3_lit_unattached (6315). * Fixed UV map on Stove models (6312). * Fixed some issues with moor AI (6345).

TBH, I'm all for keeping stuff easy. This brings more complexion to an already complex system, which takes into account leaning, movement speed, crouched and standing position and stuff. I also think that most of the people here underestimate how hard this game is for beginners. It's even hard for me, and I played this game and similar games for almost 20 years now. TDM is a LOT harder than the Thief games, and, those were considered quite hard back in the days as well. I don't think the barrier of entry should be set even higher. I also frankly see no benefit in terms of gameplay or atmosphere. And, if I may also say this: The original Thiefs didn't have it. May sound lame, but, I think this game tries to capture the feel and gameplay of the originals. Including certain gameplay mechanics, which IMO shouldn't be touched.

I just downloaded the latest beta version of the Dark Mod right now and by starting this specific FM: Iris, I get this black screen with the music and ambient sounds in the background, but no picture showing. I was only able to get to the mission briefing page showing the objectives of the mission and then by clicking on "Objectives" It takes me to a black screen. What is causing this issue? My other fan missions work just fine, I tested out other ones, so it's not my game. Could be this is a broken fan mission?

Announcing the release of “A House of Locked Secrets” for The Dark Mod! Download Download the latest version of the Dark Mod here: http://www.thedarkmod.com/download-the-mod/ Download the mission here: Mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/download/4awe6e756m12p71/ahouseoflockedsecrets.pk4 Southquarter: http://www.southquarter.com/tdm/fms/ahouseoflockedsecrets.pk4Taaki: http://darkmod.taaaki.za.net/fms/ahouseoflockedsecrets.pk4Fidcal.com: http://www.fidcal.com/darkuser/missions/ahouseoflockedsecrets.pk4 The mission should also shortly be up on the in-game downloader. General Notes -A House of Locked Secrets is a campaign, with two levels. -The mission is also a sequel to the Dark Mod FM “Requiem”. While you don’t need to have played Requiem to enjoy this mission, it is recommended, as it will help you better understand the lore of this corner of the TDM universe. -There is a companion novella to this series, Shadowcursed, available at Amazon.com or Smashwords.com. If you beat this FM, you can get a coupon code for 50% off the price! -The map you get of the manor is an automap which tells you which room you are currently in. Use it, along with the compass to help find your way. -Most inventory items in the game can be dropped, so no need to carry them around after they are no longer of any use. -If you use noclip or other console commands while playing, there is a good chance that you will break the intended flow of gameplay. Credits Mapping and Readables: Gelo R. Fleisher Voice Acting: Amber Collins, Bikerdude, Commander, Goldwell, Mortem Desino Additional scripting: Obsttorte, SteveL Additional textures and assets: Bikerdude, Crowind, Fidcal, Flanders, Goldwell, Grayman, Kyyrma, Melan, Nielsen, Sotha, Springheel Additional map optimization: Bikerdude Custom Soundtrack: Sarah Eide - www.saraheide.com Additional Music: cmusounddesign, Gigagooga, Lee Rosevere, Leonardo Badinella, Marianne Lihannah, NewEonOrchestra, Sarah Eide, Tabias Scot, Zoro. Additional Sounds: club20sound, ERH, geoneo0, Grayman, kevinkace, nothayama, qubodup, SoundsExciting, speedygonzo, swiftoid, viznoman. Testers: Airship Ballet, AluminumHaste, Baal, Bikerdude, Deadlove, demagogue, Diego, Dunedain19, gnartsch, Goldwell, Lowenz, Lux, nbohr1more, Oldjim, PranQster, SteveL, Xarg A note from the author After a lot of work ‘A House of Locked Secrets’ is finally ready for everyone to play. More than anything else, this FM was a team project. If the official TDM campaign never gets released, you might consider this to be the unofficial one, as almost everybody on the core TDM team lent a hand toward its completion. Of the many contributors, I especially want to thank SteveL whose custom code turned what was just an idea in my head into the FM you now get to play. I also want to thank Bikerdude, who performed a lot of optimization work on the map, and Goldwell whose voice brought to life many of the mission’s characters. If you like the music in the FM, check out the work of Sarah Eide (www.saraheide.com) who composed most of the custom soundtrack. Also, Marianne Lihannah makes a return from Requiem with a few songs, so check out her work too (www.funeralsinger.net). They'd both love to hear from you, so if you liked their music, let them know! On a personal note, I hope that this FM will give you a few hours of enjoyment, and if it does, feel free to drop me a line either in this forum thread, my work blog, or via email. In the future, other writing and game projects seem set to take up a lot of my time, so I give permission for anyone (preferably the TDM team) to update both Requiem and A House of Locked Secrets to fix any bugs or compatibility issues. I just ask that fixes be limited to correcting for glitches or for issues that come up due to future TDM releases. I do give permission for people to make visual & gameplay changes too but ask that you release these changes in a separate version than my release, and I ask that you make no changes to the story, readables, and plot. With that all out of the way, I want to thank you again for downloading and playing ‘A House of Locked Secrets’; I hope you enjoy it. God bless, Gelo “Moonbo” Fleisher

any by skacky and a lot of the team members behind The Black Parade are worthwhile. they're often all part of the same fan-made continuity as TBP. for some different multi-mission series of various size i'd also recommend Godbreaker and Death's Cold Embrace. the authors of those are working on their own full length campaign for Thief 2, The Broken Goddess. There's also Feast of Pilgrims which won the T2 anniversary contest and was made between team members of both fan expansions.

Its not that people are dismissing the game because of lack of shouldering, but rather a combination of things. That would be a real argument that the following occurs; 1. People don't know how to keep from making noise when moving stuff around (holding creep). 2. People don't know when black jacking works and when it doesn't (general options menu toggle). 3. Blackjack hits overhead stone overhead archway or wooden foundation (was fixed). 4. Picking up a blackjacked guard should be easy and players should know how to do it right away (new). 5. Not know how to extinguish candles and lanterns (easier and new). 6. Not knowing about general gameplay tips specific to missions (new). 7. Not being able to use favorite addons together (new). 8. Being able to know how much loot is left in a mission and mission stats like stealth score mid mission to properly ghost w/o too much spent on replaying parts of a mission (pending and in a addon). 9. Guards either searching for the noise disturbance for too long, or giving up too quickly and thus making some small missions either really tough for small mistakes or far too easy to get through (difficulty changes proposed by some). Many of these are not fixable without a global tip system for first time players, a expanded tutorial mission, and quality of life changes (a general gameplay change is not always about accessibility, options and cvars exist for that reason, but sometimes its about making it so that a button press should do what most players intentions aim to do, 95% of the time.

If the "mission fails as soon as stealth score turns non-zero," that would not be good for ghost players. They might need to find out "how" they failed and experiment to avoid alerting guards. They might need to take those score points as a "bust". They might need to take those score points to complete an objective. Then, mission authors would need to encode exceptions into their missions, which would be a lot of work (if they decide to do it at all). However, part of what makes ghosting challenging and fun is when mission authors do not create their missions with ghosting in mind. Please see: Official Ghosting Rules: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148523 Writing code for these rules would be a huge undertaking. Ghost Rules Discussion: https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148487 Creating an official mode could alienate these dedicated ghost players, because it would clash with what is considered ghosting in the community. Including the Stealth Stat Tool mod in the official release would be more useful. Or, making the audible alert states of guards quick and easy to recognize could help as well. For these reasons, I don't agree with an official "Ghost" mode. If the dev team were to do it, we should consult with @Klatremus so we get it 100% correct or not pursue it at all. (This ghosting bit should probably be in its own thread.)

After a long time and a lot of delays, I'm extremely happy and relieved to announce the release date for my first map; Lords & Legacy, on Friday the 30th of August, 2013! Lords & Legacy v.2.1 Resume: Screenshots: http://imgur.com/a/Lj8UJ#0 Notes: Build time: 2013/03/30 - 2013/08/30 To install, simply put the .pk4 file in your fm folder and install from the in-game mission menu. It is a large mission with optional objectives, so make sure to save often. The ropes in the beginning have a 'slick' surface, to simulate being 'slack lines'. They are difficult, but once you get a hang of the slide they can be fun. A couple of the large areas can be a bit rough on performance, and can be improved by adjusting the LOD slider in video options. A few of visportals open only when you get close. This is to keep the frames smooth inside the respective building, due to early inexperienced design. If you find any bugs which affect the gameplay experience, then you're very welcome to post them here, but please use the spoiler tags. Big thanks to 'Obsttorte', 'Springheel', 'Greyman', 'Bikerdude', 'Sotha' and rest of 'The Dark Mod Team'for all the help, guides and tricks. Also thanks to the other TDM users who provided fantastic support and feedback during the build. Thank you for beta-testing: 'Bikerdude', 'TylerVocal', 'Simplen00b', 'nbohr1more', 'Briareos H.' Special thanks to: 'Danus', 'Dsx' & 'Stanleh' for testing, help and support. v.2.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -The "Master Thief" challenge was impossible to do for a while, due to incorrect values. Fixed. -Getting seen by "The Killer" now also fails the "Ghost" challenge. -The 3 cardplaying guards no longer float mid air, as their chairs are now nailed to the floor. -Fixed the sound of the furnace continuing after the flames were extinguished. -Fixed weird glittering on the power cables around the map. -Fixed some moonlight popping in and out. -Fixed openable windows in Commons, clipping into the frame. -Fixed a book dropping through a desk. -Fixed visportals closing too close in Lancel's Tower, slight hit on performance though. -Added more monsterclip to Service Tower and Robert's Tower's entrance. -Improved a few vis_portals with func_portals. -Replaced curbs in Slums and Commons with some more detailed versions and changed textures. And a lot more little unecessary tweaks. Gameplay: -Added new challenge: (Jack White) - Do not knock-out anyone. -Reduced the amount of starting gear, depending on difficulty. -Added cubemaps to most windows on the map. -Redid most func_statics in Commmons Quarter to reduce tris and increase performance. Draw count is still somewhat high. -Removed all transparent windows as they didn't have actual gameplay value, just a performance drain in exchange for glitchy visuals. -Lancel's safe can no longer be picked. Find the key! -Added a couple minor cosmetic details in the sewers. -Moved a coinpurse from a wealthy commoner's sleeping butt to his nightside table. Also adjusted his furniture so thieves can better move around. -Changed sounds for several doors across the map. Once again, a big thanks to 'Bikerdude' for taking the time help out and locate room for improvement! v.2.0 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed various textures and surfaces and a few minor tweaks. -Tweaked some sounds to be in line with TDM 2.0 changes. -Fixed 2 certain AIs being too sensitive rather than drunk. (Thanks to AluminumHaste!) -Tweaked LOD on some objects, to prevent windows "popping" in and out. Gameplay: -Added more monsterclip to the towers, so the AI can now run up and down stairs. Only the stairs in the small tower has issues still. -Added more monsterclip in the city so the guards can follow you up all stairs. -Added a few minor details. -Windows in the city now dims sound, resulting in less aggro from guards and more convincing soundscape. -Reduced 'draw calls' in all the large areas, increasing performance. The map is still heavy at certain areas. Another big thanks to 'Bikerdude' and 'Greyman', for taking time out of their own schedules to help optimize the map's draw count and other significant adjustements! v.1.0.3 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed 4 black chairs in one of the towers -Fixed a floating painting -Fixed several clipping objects v.1.0.2 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed zfighting in the library's bookshelves -Fixed a black window in one of the towers -Fixed several typos in readables Gameplay: v.1.0.1 changelog: Bugs: -Fixed an issue with the main objectives not being in "sync". -Fixed console spam from a script Gameplay: -Adjusted required loot for each difficulty from "3000, 4000 and 5000" to "2500, 3500 and 4500".

To cater to both audiences. I mentioned LibreGameWiki as one example. nbohr1more mentioned other uses. Explicitly allowing reuse and spread will help TDM reach a wider audience and would hopefully attract more volunteers. More volunteers which can help improve both TDM versions. There are several benefits for a project of being in the Debian repo. One is that TDM Debian-users can report defects on any package directly to Debian (no need to register on separate forums). Debian may then fix the issue themselves (in their "TDM-libre" package) and will offer the patch upstream to TDM, who can then choose to accept or reject the patch. I envision "TDM-libre" to have the same capability of downloading any mission as regular TDM. The only difference is that "TDM-libre" would come packaged with the regular engine (which is GPL+BSD) and an included mission that has libre media/gamedata. When I play TDM by myself, I want the unlimited-play and can accept commercial restrictions. But if I were to promote it somewhere, or charge for a stream when playing online, or make a video, I would want a version without commercial restrictions (and can temporarily accept limited-play) to make sure I don't violate anyone's copyright. Perhaps. That's what I'm trying to find out.

I suggest you use the term "I", to make clear that it is something YOU want, and that you speak for yourself. But, as wesp5 mentioned, I don't really know what this is about, at all. And, I'm also wondering about all the newly registered people lately, who just arrived at this forum, and already want to revolutionize this mod. This is a thing I noticed 2 or 3 years ago, and which hasn't been present in the 15 years I play this mod and frequent these forums now. Really seems like a common thing these days, to not knock on the door, but kick it in, and stomp right in.

I did play Thief and FMs, but I don't play it any more, except for major things like Black Parade. The clunky movement and antiquated Dromed editor is what discouraged me from interacting with it over the years. I regularly play and sometimes make content for TDM, because it has much better movement model than Thief. I know that most missions don't use it well, but if you construct your geometry (gaps, ledges, distances) using power of two measurements, movement and mantling feels fast and snappy. There's no need for regression in that regard, in my opinion, there's a need for assets and missions made with the movement model in mind, to showcase its strengths properly. Even if TDM originally intended to "simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief, many things will be familiar to veteran Thief players" the actual mod history was a bit different. The team came up with a mission platform that has its own identity when it comes to mechanics. The way assets were made might have been a huge mistake, but that didn't prevent the platform from growing. Since you like anecdotal evidence, noone other Skacky once said that TDM movement model was super clunky, after playing The Painter's Wife. It was really hard to convince him that if a mapper places geometry this poorly, and isn't aware what spatial measurements play to the strengths of a movement model, no movement model will save his mission. And there is no fixing of this problem on the engine side, although it's not the first time when TDM team tries to address the asset problem with engine changes, which I suspect will ultimately lead to even more problems down the line. In game development, things like core mechanics and player tools are locked-down first, in one of the pre-production phases, because all the levels will be constructed around them. Making changes in core mechanics in a project this mature is very risky, I assume you don't plan on going through all playable spaces in all released TDM FMs to check for errors. Instead of making incremental changes in fundamental mechanics, I'd encourage you to create a fork, or some kind of major version bump candidate, like 3.0, where all things could be revamped: movement, player tools, UI, new frob mechanics, perhaps with UI contextual icons, new training map to incorporate all that, etc. Once all new elements fall into place and create something new, with a map or maps to back it up as relevant changes, it will be easier to convince existing player/author base that it was worth it. I assume the existing fanbase is already fragmented, as a result of all those heated discussions around the topic. But with multiple versions available for download, the transition to hypothetical "TDM 3.0" should be easier. It could be similar to UE2 and UE3, and you could also use this as an occasion to draw the line for backwards compatibility. I know there are old systems and variables kept in place just in order not to break existing missions. This way you could e.g. redo the LOD system, implement lights using math functions instead of textures, etc.

TDM is marketed as: It's a tremendous achievement - a detailed tribute to the Thief series. (link) Since The Dark Mod is designed to simulate the stealth gameplay of Thief, many things will be familiar to veteran Thief players. (link) It should be of no surprised when folks suggest making a change to TDM that fits more closely with Thief when it makes sense. The majority of active TDM players and mission authors I see today are also Thief players. And, besides the folks here on this forum, there aren't many places where the dev team can get player feedback on TDM, especially players who gave up on playing TDM all together. The Thief (including TTLG) community is one of the only places where we can get feedback in general and from veterans of this stealth game type. Feedback I received from a player: This is great news for our community. For our community, more players increase the likelihood of more devs, mission authors, and content creators. For the content creators, more players experience the content they make. That said, I think most agree that TDM is not meant be a 1:1 copy of Thief, and that's a good thing. Changes to TDM should be carefully considered and playtested before release. EDIT: To clarify, addressing player complaints does not mean copy Thief game mechanics. It means that when player complaints are addressed, a solution that is appropriate for TDM is implemented.

TDM has tons of textures from "free" texture resources that do not allow redistribution and cannot be incorporated into a commercial project. Someone would need to create a huge replacement pack of textures that do not break the look of existing missions and do not infringe on the copyrighted textures. Also, many artists who contributed to this project do not want 3rd party entities to use their work in commercial projects. They intended the models, textures, sounds, animations to be exclusively used for Darkmod content. You would either have to replace ALL assets or contact every contributor and ask them to re-license their assets. Many contributors are no longer active with the project and haven't visited the forums in years so it would be no easy feat. I cannot speak to Debian policy but I think that they treat installers that add non-free content the same as non-free content itself. One could argue that Steam is such an installer but I guess Debian would counter that there are a few fully Libre games on Steam. I think Debian, Ubuntu, or Linux Mint need to consider a repo that allows for games (etc) that include non-libre content but intentionally offer this content for free to the community with no stipulations other than "don't try to sell it as a product".

The gamepad implementation allows for a great degree of flexibility to personalize settings, aside from a few minor issues that I mentioned here: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22337-gamepad-bindings/ I would say that playing TDM with a gamepad works very well, especially considering that it was implemented as experimental and hasn't been changed since then. If I could, I'd go back to 2021-you and congratulate you on buying that gamepad. I notice that your DarkmodPadbinds.cfg looks very different from mine...

Initially wanted not to post about this, I told myself it's just another useless feature that would waste time before a release and all. But it does carry actual gameplay limitations I run into: I often have no way to tell if an enemy is dead or just knocked out. If the FM has a "don't kill anyone" objective that makes it clear, otherwise you need to pick up the body and see what the text says. In the past you could tell by their eyes: Dead AI would have them open while knocked out AI had them closed. Last time I played it seemed like even this stopped working and both cases had their eyes shut... a recent bug perhaps? In any case it's often a difficult cue to find, so I wonder if anything better would be possible. Obviously AI become ragdolls so animating any important bones is surely impossible: I'd suggest making them move slightly so it's clear they're still breathing, but this would likely send the ragdoll shaking all over the place since they probably can't handle an animation being mixed in. So here's one idea that should work great: Alongside the eyes we could have the mouth be open, which is easier to spot from a close distance. Knocked out AI have their mouth closed, dead AI have it open which is a clear cue and also looks more... well, dead. Another would be to add the snoring sound to knocked out AI... now I'm curious if in real life someone being knocked unconscious snores like when they're asleep, don't try it out of course

It is possible that this is a setting that needs to be activated to work: https://mantisbt.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=23221

After having trouble dragging the body where he wanted, the player said, "No. Noooo." (29:09) Player said, "I'm sorry. I'm not trying to look up there. It's just very awkward to drag bodies." (30:08) What I see is a player having trouble being stealthy while playing a stealth game, so this video just adds evidence in support of making shouldering the primary action over dragging. I never saw that he figured out how to shoulder a body. I think we are wanting to optimize for two different scenarios: One is to optimize for a stealth experience, and the other is to optimize for a "comical" experience. If I'm understanding you correctly, you have a strong fascination with body manipulation. Earlier in this thread, you stated: What you find as "comical", I see as the player suffering with the gameplay and struggling with the controls. Players have written their frustration with the pre-2.12 controls and stopped playing TDM all together. I've already seen players write about their interest in trying 2.12 based on the recent changes, which is huge. They're willing to give it another go, and that's great for our community. I am interested in watching playthrough videos and reading player experiences with the 2.12 version once released. Then, we'll be able to get more feedback about the 2.12 controls. Body manipulation is still available, and I find that it's even easier to do with the 2.12 controls. @STiFU commented something similar: @snatcher, given that body manipulation is so important to you, then I suggest creating a group and creating content about body manipulation. This could be similar to the groups that ghost or ironman the game. For example, Rule #1: Bodies must be dragged. Shouldering bodies is not allowed.

I just want to say, kudos to @Wellingtoncrab for so steadfastly championing the pro-change side of this discussion! The people who will benefit most from this change are people whose voices we would normally never hear. It is courageous of you to lend them a voice. Also, at risk of beating an already dead horse, I'd like to raise an objection against the anti-change argument earlier that the current set of control complications are all explained in the training mission, and therefore anyone who doesn't find them has only themselves to blame. That requires the training tutorial be fit for purpose, and according to modern standards it is simply not. The TDM training mission is technically competent, but it fails at the critical requirement of giving new players motivation to slog through the learning curve in order to play the game proper. This is an area where Thief inarguably did it better even 20 years ago. TDM's tutorial is too long. It is bloated with too much non-essential information, and lacks any teasers of the world building or gameplay loops that would motivate a player to try the game proper. To anyone with modern gaming sensibilities, the training mission says this game does not respect your time. People today expect game mechanics to be discoverable in the course of gameplay, which largely means clinging to genre conventions as much as possible, and teaching the rest through minimal, immersive tutorialization within the main gameplay loop. A New Job is a big step in the right direction as a replacement, but unless I am misremembering, it is only a partial one. It wisely focuses on the essentials of moment-to moment play, leaving the advanced stuff for the player to discover on their own. Except the whole problem is these advanced features are not at all designed to be discoverable. If your argument is that something is fine because anyone who played the whole training mission would know how to deal with it, that in itself is a sign of a major problem.

No idea. What I meant was just that leaning can expose you (a lot) depending on the lighting, so presumably you won't get "invisible shots" with the new lean. I haven't tried it yet, so I could be wrong, but that's probably the case. On a side note, personally I don't like that as it is that much. Getting so exposed makes leaning so useless in so many situations... I'm always scared of leaning because of that. I think it's one of those realism vs gameplay things where I'd rather favor gameplay. So much about hiding in shadows and sneaking is hyper unrealistic anyway. But favoring the player usually makes a more gratifying gameplay. Like when you're making a 2D game and you make the player hit box smaller than the sprite, to make it more forgiving and less frustrating.