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Will AI relight candles that are misplaced like this, i.e.,"on the floor"? I seem to recall them having done so, picked up the item and placed it back in its place and relighted it. Maybe in No Honor Among Thieves? I could be misremembering though.

 

Does it have to be set by the mapper or is it default behavior after the mapper sets the AI to relight? Are there animations for this?

 

The core behavior is that AI will ignore doused candles that aren't close to vertical.

 

If you've seen an AI pick up a candle, replace it, and relight it, then it must have been scripted by the map author.

 

Candles come in 4 flavors:

 

1 - flame is out at map start, AI will ignore it

2 - flame is doused, AI will comment but not relight

3 - flame is doused, AI will comment and relight

4 - flame is doused, AI will comment, relight, and become alerted

 

The mapper chooses the behavior he wants on a per-candle basis.

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There is no safe way to knock someone out in real life. Not with a bump on the head, not with choking. Even using a poison dart dipped in some anaesthetic would not be safe, because anaesthetics need

I find the skill in blackjacking should lie in maneuvering yourself into a position where you can knockout an AI and hide the body without getting detected by other AIs. Once you’re in that position,

Many things in TDM seem minor until you try to make them happen. Most times you sink into quicksand.

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Or we could experiment with just heavier footsteps for this one.

 

I'm always open to listening to better sounds if you've got them.

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There is a sheath weapon key, it's the put away weapon key defauly " ` " and it works on all weapons.

 

Candles that get knocked over only go out after a couple seconds if they land on their sides, if the candles lands remaining standing up vertically, it will continue to burn.

 

I purposely pick up and hide every candle I can find so the AI will not be able to relight them. I even hid some in a chest one time. :ph34r:

 

Mantling/climbing up walls is what the vine arrow is for.

 

Thief wearings high heels/clogs is standard Thief immersion to sound cues to inform player and both AI. As much as it's not the best set of shoes to wear, it's much more intense an experience.

 

like any other inventory item, you press the Use key to Use that item...

 

Not sure if you were just referring to readables, but I can use "frob" key (right mouse button) to use lockpicks and use keys to unlock doors. So not all items in inventory are activated by the "use" key.

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I would like to give my impressions after playing this game and with just a little experience playing thief in general. (Played a bit of T1). So I'm pretty much new to the Thief Franchise. Hope this helps to further develop this game and make it much better than already is.

 

 

First Impressions:

 

- The first thing I want to pinpoint is that this game has a LEARNING CURVE! More specifically with the club as well as the lock picking system. It took me a while to get used to rely on hearing instead of a visual way to unlock doors and chests. It also took me a while to get to properly use the club as I failed many times trying to hit guards in the head. This invisible learing curve can make the game a bit frustrating at the begining if you're not used to the Thief Style Gameplay.

 

 

Recommendations: Some recommendations for the game itself as well as future FMs.

 

-The lock picking system is fun at the begining but it can get tiresome pretty quickly. I would like to recomend to add a visual way to open locks to go along the hearing style of lock picking.

 

- The already disscused idea of adding guard dogs sounds really interesting. Even with it's animation flaws could add another dimension of gameplay. Dobermans suit better for the setting. I think.

 

- More Puzzles. Instead of simple locks, it would be nice to see more puzzles implemented in the missions. There are countless of puzzles (good and bad) implemented in many games. It could serve as reference.

 

- Another level of difficulty by dying if being seen by a guard, as a hardcore option. It could finish with a clip of the Thief being hanged at the city square. :D

 

-More security systems to protect property from theft, like traps: Moving walls, spikes coming out of the walls , use of fire, etc. Used if the thief fails to open a lock.

 

- Better animations for the AI. Like for example, if a guard see you approach he would go "Huh!" and stop for two seconds giving the player a second to hide before the guard reacts. Sometimes being too realistic is not neccesarily more fun.

 

- The only weapon I can recomend is the Cerbatana. A wooden tube used with a feather dart with poison or tranquilizer, for a more silent long distance offensive.

 

 

And finally and most importantly I would like to recommend to make a whole campaign to go along with the Game with a new tutorial stage included. This time instead of making a lineal map with a story. Make it a Huge City divided by districts similar to BGII map (Temple District, Trade District, Slums, Catacombs Sewers etc). The Art style of the city could be a Venice style of City. A city filled with water canals, bridges, rich people, poor people, sick people, Prostitutes, bandits, guilds etc . And then work in one main story line along many mission style stories to go along or could be included after in chapters.

 

2dbnkns.jpg

 

I don't have much experience with making maps or animations or anything of that sort. But I do have plenty of ideas that could fit well as missions or side quests that could work well within this setting of game. Hope my impressions and recomendations is somehow helpful. :) And thanks to the developers for making this beautiful game. Which I think is the best Free game so far. Sorry for my bad grammar. (Not too good in English)

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Oh I forgot to add another recommendation in case making a big campaign with a huge city is not possible. Making the missions unlockable. First divide the missions by difficulty, then only allow the easiest ones to be downloaded and depending on the difficulty selected by those mentioned Missions. The player unlock other ones and so on. It gives the game a feel of continuity even if it's artificial as well as it eases the learning curve since new player could only access easy missions and go along they learn. It's a bit controversial.

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-The lock picking system is fun at the begining but it can get tiresome pretty quickly. I would like to recomend to add a visual way to open locks to go along the hearing style of lock picking.

 

On most locks there is. The door handle (or pin on chests) moves in time with the sound pattern.

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On most locks there is. The door handle (or pin on chests) moves in time with the sound pattern.

 

I think the handle is kind of tricky as it sometimes go down all the way, but then continues and it makes it somewhat unreliable. Sometimes I fail more if I watch the door handle and end up only relying on hearing the sounds. But nevertheless you're right. Both elements are there.

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Not sure if you were just referring to readables, but I can use "frob" key (right mouse button) to use lockpicks and use keys to unlock doors. So not all items in inventory are activated by the "use" key.

 

I think actually you're just Frob interacting with the door with the condition that you have a key or lock pick equiped. The Use key then uses the key to lock the door again.

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- More Puzzles. Instead of simple locks, it would be nice to see more puzzles implemented in the missions. There are countless of puzzles (good and bad) implemented in many games. It could serve as reference.

 

- Another level of difficulty by dying if being seen by a guard, as a hardcore option. It could finish with a clip of the Thief being hanged at the city square. :D

 

-More security systems to protect property from theft, like traps: Moving walls, spikes coming out of the walls , use of fire, etc. Used if the thief fails to open a lock.

 

All of these are for mappers to implement. They're good ideas for the right FM, so maybe a few will take it up. They're not even that hard to do. You ought to learn how to make an FM and try a few. ;)

 

- The already disscused idea of adding guard dogs sounds really interesting. Even with it's animation flaws could add another dimension of gameplay. Dobermans suit better for the setting. I think.

 

 

- Better animations for the AI. Like for example, if a guard see you approach he would go "Huh!" and stop for two seconds giving the player a second to hide before the guard reacts. Sometimes being too realistic is not neccesarily more fun.

 

 

New animations are very labor intensive. Somebody has to make them, and the team doesn't have the people to do it; and they aren't exactly critical. There's a much better chance a mapper would make them independently for their own FM. Hopefully some of them can try ideas like this in their FM so we can see how they play. I'd definitely be interested in seeing guard dogs, and more ambient fauna generally, cats, birds, bats, chickens, pigs...

 

- The only weapon I can recomend is the Cerbatana. A wooden tube used with a feather dart with poison or tranquilizer, for a more silent long distance offensive.

 

This overlaps with the gas arrow functionality, so I don't think it will get made for gameplay reasons, as Spring mentioned earlier. But again a mapper might try it for their own FM. I believe this is something a mapper could make as an inventory object that shoots the dart when inv-frobbed. Might work in an Amazon themed kind of FM.

 

And finally and most importantly I would like to recommend to make a whole campaign to go along with the Game with a new tutorial stage included.

 

There is a campaign being developed now called Crucible of Shadows. It might not get packaged with the game, though, since it's not an "official campaign" that the team worked on for the purpose of packaging with the game. But it'd probably be a great way to introduce the game & world to people.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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So there are two ways to look at this situation. One where it doesn't make sense because its not an inventory item, like for instance a candle, so you'd think, "I frob to interact with it, why can't I frob to stop interacting with it?" The other where it does make sense is, this is how I close inventory readables so this is also how I close in-world readables. So closing a readable of any kind uses the same key.

 

I understand your argumentation, but my suggestion doesn't change anything for people who are used to close a readable with the use key. I never asked for this to be changed, I only asked for frob to be added to the keys that do this. One could go even further and add frob to the keys that close inventory readables too, then everyone could do it like they want! Still I don't know how easy this is in TDM. Bloodlines uses a lot of Python so it's flexible, but where are the impulse commands defined?

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In keeping with the spirit of the original post, and my newfound exploration of Dark Mod, I would like to say that everything is already so improved upon Dark Project. I have just started playing this Mod after watching it grow for 5 years! I know there are things that the masterminds of Dark Mod still want to improve upon, but I think the time is long overdue for some sort of reflection. There is a wealth of concrete information available on the development and subsequent horde of critical and extensively honed gameplay features presented in Dark Mod. However, all of these truly glorious things are not all highlighted together in spectacular effect in one single location. I just think that after everything we have been through as hardcore Thief fans, and though I have not contributed to Dark Mod, I am about as staunch a hardcore crpg gamer as you will find left anywhere, and you are the guys who brought this dream to fruition. You should take the time to reflect on all your achievements and assemble a mass listing of features and gameplay ideals carried over from the classic Thief: The Dark Project. It could even be a good project for Subjective to sink his venemous teeth into. You know, really make it pop, so everyone can see in broad daylight the beauty of what has been done here, to preserve not only the legacy of one hell of a game making company, but also carrying on the spirit of CLASSIC gaming itself. Again, sorry for the rambling, it wont happen often. Carry on with thy tales of further improvements to this modding juggernaut!

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In keeping with the spirit of the original post, and my newfound exploration of Dark Mod, I would like to say that everything is already so improved upon Dark Project. I have just started playing this Mod after watching it grow for 5 years! I know there are things that the masterminds of Dark Mod still want to improve upon, but I think the time is long overdue for some sort of reflection. There is a wealth of concrete information available on the development and subsequent horde of critical and extensively honed gameplay features presented in Dark Mod. However, all of these truly glorious things are not all highlighted together in spectacular effect in one single location. I just think that after everything we have been through as hardcore Thief fans, and though I have not contributed to Dark Mod, I am about as staunch a hardcore crpg gamer as you will find left anywhere, and you are the guys who brought this dream to fruition. You should take the time to reflect on all your achievements and assemble a mass listing of features and gameplay ideals carried over from the classic Thief: The Dark Project. It could even be a good project for Subjective to sink his venemous teeth into. You know, really make it pop, so everyone can see in broad daylight the beauty of what has been done here, to preserve not only the legacy of one hell of a game making company, but also carrying on the spirit of CLASSIC gaming itself. Again, sorry for the rambling, it wont happen often. Carry on with thy tales of further improvements to this modding juggernaut!

 

Great idea, but I don't think we have anyone who has the time to pull this together.

 

If some non-team member wants to take it on, that would be great.

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Well... As I got given the rights to post, I think I should contribute a bit here. I'll probably get a bit out of the subject of this thread and instead of just posting suggestions only I may also ask a few questions. I never was a forums lover so I don't really see the reason of making multiple threads. If that's a problem a mod can poke me and I'll edit and move them around as they should be.

 

As a completionist and a packrat the first thing I did was to download ALL missions for this. And here is the first problem I had. For some reason every once in a while the .exe crashed while I was downloading. Didn't manage to find out what caused this (if it was a specific mission or something) but as it hasn't happened again since, I guess it's not my machines fault, and probably it's something with the downloader.

 

Another problem I had with downloading was all the time and clicks I had to spend to download all the missions. My suggestion would be to add a multi-select functionality to it with either checkboxes or a button "Download all". In buttons case tho' even if it helps some people like me, it'll be of no help to the majority of the people that want to download, say, 3-4 specific missions and not all of them. So I'd stick to the checkboxes suggestion.

 

As for the rest, what I feel like it needs some major work or an overhaul even, is the animations. They are simply put "funny", especially when the guards are attacking you. But we need a good animator for it. Nothing I can do here to help...

 

I haven't played much of it yet (been busy with thief 4), but I played Tears and started the "A score to settle". It seems like there are way too many "Oh hell! This guard spawned on top of me!" moments but that is probably a problem with me not paying much attention. As for the people that make the missions I'd suggest two things. First to make better paths for the guards (don't really know if it's a mapper not spending enough time to do it in a believable way, or a restriction the engine has, but it feels very unnatural), which combined with better animations would make a much more satisfying experience and provide better maps. In the "A score to settle" mission for example I spent like 30-40 mins trying to find the contact at the start, but I simply can't find him. A map noting where he is supposed to be would help a ton here (even the general area not his exact position). Animations for opening/closing doors or picking up items would be cool. I don't like watching my hands all the time lke in thief 4 (it's creepy) but picking up an item and seeing it floating is immersion-breaking.

 

Also as like many other people have done already I'd love some better AI for the guards. Things like finding a dead body or noticing if someone's missing from a patrol or from his spot should be obvious. Shouting for help as well...I'd also like some lockpicking animation/minigame like every game has in our days.

 

When loading a new mission even after I get the message that mission is loaded or the bar fills there's a lot of time left before I can actually play the mission. Don't know why that happens but I don't like it.

 

As for the engine itself I'd like some atmospheric effects, like thief 4 has (probably the best thing about thief 4). And the engine also needs better documentation. I read some wiki articles on the engine but didn't help much to be honest.

 

Now on what I can do to help...

As for now not much, until I understand the engine at least.

I study game development in college and I'm finishing in June. I know flash and edge (I highly doubt they can be of any use), C and Java from programing (Pascal and Basic are totally useless probably), and leaarning C++ at this cemester. I also know lots in photoshop and modeling ( I love modeling and hope I'll do it as a job eventually) so I could help with new models or textures. But first I have to find how to get Maya and Zbrush to export in .ase, and I also have to find through trial and error what polycount and texture resolution the engine can handle before there's a performance hit, unless someone can answer that for me. Also I need to understand how the engine handles the textures before I start making any. But I'll stick to props/enviroment as my organic modelling is subpar to even the lamest guard model in TDM.

 

And now time for the major question.

Following the tutorials in wiki about the engine I saw the writter making a room with brushes. Is brushes the only way for rooms/enviroment modeling? Or I can make the room/road/house/whatever in maya and import it?

 

And a couple more questions...

Does the engine support tesselation?

The images from the http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/189-concept-art-list/ do not load for me. Is it just me or is there something I can do about it?

Sometimes I want to scream

So long that life escapes

And then I'd shut my eyes

I'd be the angel of disgrace

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Great idea, but I don't think we have anyone who has the time to pull this together.

 

If some non-team member wants to take it on, that would be great.

I agree, and I so wish I could do it! I just dont have any of the resources needed. Limited internet time *and* limited computer time itself! It just seems that with all the examination of NuThief, the time seems right, for Dark Mod to get its chance to shine, not because of all the ways it tried to make money off the Thief series, but all the myriad features and elements of Thief: The Dark Project it faithfully adhered to. Dark Mod is truly a fanatics dream, and I wish I could be the one to do a comprehensive and catchy "fanpage" for it. A wiki is great, but I mean more like a clasic fanpage about Dark Mod, that highlights all the awesome and classic features, with gameplay videos screenshots, and everything else. Edited by RavenShore
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I also have to find through trial and error what polycount and texture resolution the engine can handle before there's a performance hit, unless someone can answer that for me.

 

You can compare to how many polygons existing models have (displayed under info/options when loading a model into the editor). Obviously the lower the better until shape begins to be lost. Similarly, there's no point in having a high resolution image for something small on screen.

 

Also I need to understand how the engine handles the textures before I start making any.

 

There are detailed wiki articles there, round binary numbers are critical (64/128/256/1024 for really detailed stuff).

 

Following the tutorials in wiki about the engine I saw the writter making a room with brushes. Is brushes the only way for rooms/enviroment modeling? Or I can make the room/road/house/whatever in maya and import it?

 

Yes and no. Your environment must be sealed from the void with worldspawn brushes, yes. However within that there may be patches and models. Note AI won't "see" some of those things, so monsterclip brushes are used to keep them away from stuff they'd get hung up on.

 

For performance and proper sound propagation, you want brushes dividing logical areas so other non-visible stuff isn't being rendered when not seen, and AI don't hear you through a wall.

"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Yes, but that does not draw the weapon you just sheathed. It would be handy if it did was what I was saying.

 

Would we need 9 different buttons to sheath / draw 9 different weapons?

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Shouting for help as well...I'd also like some lockpicking animation/minigame like every game has in our days.

 

When loading a new mission even after I get the message that mission is loaded or the bar fills there's a lot of time left before I can actually play the mission. Don't know why that happens but I don't like it.

 

Guards in TDM do shout/seek help, it's just not as well implemented as it could be to create a better challenge.

 

No way on lockpicking minigame. If you were lockpicking a door, you have to rely on listeners to tumblers turn and click or either fall and reset, there is no visual cue for this in real life, and yet there is still is the door handle moving in TDM as a reference. I think this makes lockpicking that much more tense and exciting.

 

The load times have become much shorter since the game's creation. More work will eventually get them to even shorter load/wait times.

 

A lot of TDM is limited based on the age of idTech4 (models/animations), but it's still a great game that knocks the pants off pretty much all released in present day. All the neat ideas that I saw in Thief 4 that weren't in the original trilogy were actually things TDM had thought up and incorporated years prior.

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I agree with what you said about lockpicking. The only reason I said about the minigame was that after you do it some (lots of times) it becomes boring. 2-3 different minigames would avoid that.

Sometimes I want to scream

So long that life escapes

And then I'd shut my eyes

I'd be the angel of disgrace

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there are way too many "Oh hell! This guard spawned on top of me!" moments

 

Guards don't "spawn" in the middle of the game unless mappers have specifically set them to do so, and that rarely ever happens.

 

 

First to make better paths for the guards (don't really know if it's a mapper not spending enough time to do it in a believable way, or a restriction the engine has, but it feels very unnatural)

 

Saying "it feels very unnatural" doesn't tell us anything other than your personal feelings. What specifically is it about the paths that you find unnatural?

 

In the "A score to settle" mission for example I spent like 30-40 mins trying to find the contact at the start, but I simply can't find him. A map noting where he is supposed to be would help a ton here (even the general area not his exact position).

 

The objectives tell you the direction and the name of the road. If you keep turning that direction you will find him. That said, A Score to Settle is specifically not recommended for people new to TDM.

 

 

Things like finding a dead body or noticing if someone's missing from a patrol or from his spot should be obvious. Shouting for help as well

 

AI do react to finding dead bodies, and they do shout for help. If you've only played a mission and a half, you probably haven't got a very good range of experience to establish what AI can and can't do.

 

Having AI react to someone missing from their patrol is quite difficult to code, especially when AI don't follow the exact same pattern like robots.

 

I'd also like some lockpicking animation/minigame like every game has in our days.

 

Lockpicking IS a mini game. Animations would require you to be "sucked" into position (ala TDS and Thief4) which is something most players here don't like. TDM is focused on giving the player as much control as possible. Regularly taking control away from the player so you can show him something pretty is not immersive and adds nothing to gameplay.

 

Don't know why that happens but I don't like it.

 

Join the club.

 

I also know lots in photoshop and modeling ( I love modeling and hope I'll do it as a job eventually) so I could help with new models or textures. But first I have to find how to get Maya and Zbrush to export in .ase, and I also have to find through trial and error what polycount and texture resolution the engine can handle before there's a performance hit, unless someone can answer that for me.

 

You can also save models in .lwo format. You'll want to start here: http://wiki.thedarkm...#Basic_Modeling

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Guards don't "spawn" in the middle of the game unless mappers have specifically set them to do so, and that rarely ever happens.

 

As I said, it's probably me not paying enough attention...

Saying "it feels very unnatural" doesn't tell us anything other than your personal feelings. What specifically is it about the paths that you find unnatural?

 

Two things mostly.

1) The path is too narrow, which results to them following the exact same path every time (not a meter left or right than their previous patrol). That's probably up to the mapmakers but I haven't tested it yet in the engine to see how it works.

2) They move to a set point, sit there for some seconds frozen and then start walking again to the next point. I believe that this could be solved with some animations probably or by giving them a task to do, or set a small patrol in that area they stop so they move a bit around.

This ends up making them feel a bit robotic in my opinnion. But again, only have experience to speak about St Lucia. Don't know if it's better in other missions, if mechanics changed since then, if it's just a mapper option or whatever. I'm probably speaking before I test enough...

 

AI do react to finding dead bodies

 

Look around 8:50

 

Maybe the guards FoV was quite low but he's standing in front of 2 dead guards not noticing anything. Granted he has his back on them but that wasn't the case when he got there on his patrol. As for myself I can't provide a video with it myself as I never kill guards. Unless it's unnavoidable.

 

As for the .lwo export, my best hope is I'll find an .ase exporter. For some reason I can't find a .lwo one and I searched for it for a long time for another project

Sometimes I want to scream

So long that life escapes

And then I'd shut my eyes

I'd be the angel of disgrace

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In the scene at 8:50, there isn't enough light on the bodies for the patrolling guard to see them.

 

Even though the player can see them, it doesn't mean that the AI should be able to see them. If this weren't the case, then there'd be no ability for the player to hide himself (or bodies) in the shadows.

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1) The path is too narrow, which results to them following the exact same path every time (not a meter left or right than their previous patrol).

 

AI take the shortest route between two pathnodes.

 

 

2) They move to a set point, sit there for some seconds frozen and then start walking again to the next point

 

If they're literally "frozen" then something is buggy. It's common for mappers to put "wait" pathnodes however, so AI will walk to a spot, stand there idly for a certain amount of time, and then move on. This is normal behaviour for guards.

 

 

Look around 8:50

 

 

Those bodies are in complete darkness with no nearby lights. Guards can't see bodies in the dark.

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And wrt what AI do while on patrol, that's entirely up to the mapper. Some patrols are rigid and predictable. Some aren't. But it's up to the mapper to decide what the AI do.

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This overlaps with the gas arrow functionality, so I don't think it will get made for gameplay reasons, as Spring mentioned earlier. But again a mapper might try it for their own FM. I believe this is something a mapper could make as an inventory object that shoots the dart when inv-frobbed. Might work in an Amazon themed kind of FM.

 

I guess it does. It would only serve as a variation. I think this weapon was implemented in the new Assasins Creed Game. Another idea would be to use the player's body as a weapon when jumping on to a guard from a rooftop. Is this already possible in the game?

 

 

There is a campaign being developed now called Crucible of Shadows. It might not get packaged with the game, though, since it's not an "official campaign" that the team worked on for the purpose of packaging with the game. But it'd probably be a great way to introduce the game & world to people.

 

Good to know. It would be nice to have a campaign along with the game to make it feel more complete. But it would indeed take a lot of work to create a big segmented city. I could only help with some Art Direction and some storyline and side quests ideas.

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