Is matching the TDM universe important in mapping?

[Goldwell]

I was just wondering what the general consensus is on getting your FM to match the dark mod settings. I know the universe can be vague at times but usually maps and their style fit within the typical thief style universe. I would like to know how fellow mappers feel the importance of matching that universe is and if you guys & gals are open to new ideas or if the thought of that turns you off completely.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Goldwell

[STiFU]

I think of the Dark Mod Universe as something you can work with, but don't necessarily have to. It's just something to get you started or inspire you, but you may very well cook up your own soup. I do like it however, if other maps or ideas are crossreferenced, like Sotha's Mandrasola etc. It just builds up a lot more feeling of connectivity.

 

That being said, using the canon thief universe is a no-go.

[Destined]

I agree withSTiFU: The TDM universe presents a good basis for missions and it is nice to see some consistency, but I think it is quite difficult to maintain it completely. This would only be possible if each author would have played every map released so far and keeps the former stories (and some prominent locations) in mind while making his own. So I personally think of it as "parrallel universes" in the same setting. There are things that can be found in each of it (like the factions), but each mapper has his own Bridgeport to design as he/she imagines it.

 

I myself would also not use the canon thief universe. TDM is similar enough, that we do not need it and it is more interesting to play a thief other than Garrett. His story is told elsewhere and there are other thieves with interesting stories.

[Obsttorte]

Short answer: no.

[Airship Ballet]

Do or don't, it's not tremendously important so long as you don't draw attention to the fact that you have or haven't. When people go to great lengths to let the player know they've either fit their location into the canon or distanced it from it, it ends up breaking the fourth wall. "How 'bout that Bridgeport, eh guys? Mandrasola, right?" or "Pfft, Bridgeport? What's that? Never heard of it" are both just immersion shatterers.

[nbohr1more]

This is a tough one. Thief fan mission authors often diverged wildly from the Thief canon and often to great success so going off-script is something you'd expect to see here too if you are a veteran mapper and player. The problem lies with users who don't quite get the fan mission scene. Keeping with the official setting helps them grasp how all these missions are related and adds a level of assurance that they aren't gonna stumble into something strange that they don't like. I think we have enough high quality canon missions now where authors shouldn't need to worry about sticking with the universe if they don't want to. I think I can confidently say we'd prefer an awesome new mission that doesn't fit our setting rather than "no mission at all" because sticking with our universe is too confining for a mission author.

[demagogue]

Parallel or inspired-by quasi-canon sounds good to me. Some of the best T2 FMs like Calendra's Legacy or Keeper of the Prophecy were a reimagined Garrett. Of course we don't even have a set protagonist and our world is pretty flexible, so for us it's even easier to wiggle around the canon, and take or leave what we want.

 

If an author really wants to be scrupulous to a consistent canon then great, more power to it. I'd personally love to see somebody write up a world bible as a resource that takes into account how FMs have developed the world. It'd be fun to have a consistent canon whether mappers use it entirely or not IMO.

[Sotha]

WE, the mappers, we are the TDM universe in how we choose to portray it in our missions.

WE, the players, we are the TDM universe in how we interpret the vision the mappers present to us.

 

The TDM universe is free flowing, freely created and freely consumed. It is a place, a feeling, a story the mappers collaboratively progress.

 

Do not use IP of others.

 

Also, it is good to follow some thematic guidelines (gritty, medieval, stealth, etc), but it is not mandatory in my eyes.

 

Oh, and it would be polite not to break creations of others. I could not make a mission where Ulysses assassinates Corwin or William Steele. But I could make a mission where Ulysses assassinates Thomas Porter.

 

Crossreferencing works of others is a polite nod, if not praise of their work.

[Springheel]

Thief FMs could diverge wildly from canon because the canon was already well established the OMs. It's harder to do that in TDM. Most players aren't going to read the wiki to learn about the setting, so they won't really have much of a sense of the setting other than what they get from FMs. A lot of players probably just assume it's Thief (which is why you hear LPers referring to "Hammers"), but players new to TDM may be coming from Dishonored or T4, and have little to no sense of the setting, so they can feel a little adrift if they play two missions with nothing in common.

 

That's the value of an official campaign--it establishes a set of expectations in players, both of setting and quality, so that when they play other FMs they have a benchmark to measure them against.

[Melan]

That depends.

• Is it about matching specific facts? ("Bridgeport is ruled by the city council. The Inventor's Guild supplies strange devices to the navy.")
• Is it about sticking to a set of shared assumptions? ("Early electrical devices and steam engines coexist with mediaeval guards. The city is dirty and crowded.")
• Is it about evoking a certain mood? ("Most stories involve morally dubious characters. Corruption and dark conspiracies are afoot.")

Any of these can serve as a common point, and any of these can be contested.

[VanishedOne]

My w.i.p. doesn't outright tell you that it isn't set in the Bridgeportverse, or indeed that it isn't set somewhere in the Thiefverse, if that's what it pleases you to imagine of your own spontaneous accord. It also doesn't tell you quite what the

has done to

, or why His Lordship is

. I prefer mystery to extensive specifics in a mission.

Edited March 5, 2015 by VanishedOne

[Petike the Taffer]

Other: I like both option 1 and option 3, though for the sake of TDM's successful future, I'd prefer an emphasis on option 1.

 

If I get good at FM making and release at least two or three FMs in the coming years, I might try my hand at option 3 by making an FM set outside the standard TDM setting.

 

 

And I'd have somewhere to place an FM like that: For about a year now, I've been developing my own fantasy setting and an RPG set in it (the game itself is the main reason I started developing the setting, though I made some early notes on it already years ago). The RPG is unusual, since I've centered it all around being a professional thief or a member of a thieves' guild. Naturally, there is some inspiration from Thief in it, though not excessive. I've also taken inspiration from other classic games like Arcanum, and a ton of various fiction and non-fiction, usually historical. The setting itself is a bit Discworld-ian in tone (an equal blend of humour and seriousness) and though it is European-inspired, I've gone for something of a "weird Europe" approach. While the inspirations are still firmly rooted in European history, I've reworked the "western" nations in such a way that they differ a lot from the standard fantasy tropes associated with them in most works. The rest of the continent has a sort of "more eastern" flavour and generally uses sources of inspiration that I think a vast majority of fantasy fans rarely exploit and tend to overlook. Guess that leaves more for me, heh !

 

 

Thief FMs could diverge wildly from canon because the canon was already well established the OMs. It's harder to do that in TDM. Most players aren't going to read the wiki to learn about the setting, so they won't really have much of a sense of the setting other than what they get from FMs.

 

Part of the reason why I'd prefer to contribute to TDM's own universe in at least my first few missions is exactly this reason. It's stil in flux, and even after tens of FMs, we're still only establishing some of its specifics (what might or might not become "canon", if you will).

 

I like the simple beauty of this approach: The setting grows organically from our own works over time (and them occassionally cross-referencing each other), with a few basic rules for this universe being the overall glue that holds it together.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Petike the Taffer

[Destined]

Regarding matching the universe: Are there any landmarks in Bridgeport that could be used in the background of the map? Considering the name of the city I would expect it to have a special bridge like the Tower Bridge in London or the Krämerbrücke in Erfurt (although the latter is not very high and thus maybe not suitable for depicting it in the background). Also other tall buildings might be of use like a famous big Builder church. That way a mapper can make a rough model of it somewhere in the background to show the mission's relation to Bridgeport and also give the player some point for orientation (if the mapper/player does not want to use a compass).

[Springheel]

Bridgeport has two bridges. Check the wiki for more info.

[Destined]

I have seen the map, but do these bridges have any special properties?

[Sotha]

I have seen the map, but do these bridges have any special properties?

 

You are free to create content. If your FM requires Tower Bridge in Bridgeport (or any special kind of medieval bridge), just make it. Perhaps other mappers will later refer to your bridge, and your bridge becomes semi-official canon everyone knows about.

 

The lore grows as we make it. All mappers can give their shot in fleshing out a location. That's one more thing that makes mapping fun & addicting.

[Springheel]

I have seen the map, but do these bridges have any special properties?

 

Other than the fact that they're very large and have tolls on them, nothing else has been settled:

 

 

The wards on the eastern side of the river are connected to the west by two massive bridges: Northbridge and Newbridge. Riverboat traffic ferries travellers from one side to the other as well. Smugglers often use ferrymen to avoid paying the hefty bridge tolls.

...

There is a saying in the city, "Wealth rises to the top" (or "Shit floats to the top", depending on who you ask). Both refer to the fact that the oldest and most wealthy districts lie atop the hill overlooking the ocean. The Builders' Grand Cathedral, the City Council Chambers, and the mansions of many of the wealthier inhabitants are all located there.

 

[Destined]

Another question regarding background: I have read, that the scenario is planned as a kind of "Roman Empire that mad it to inustralisation", so my question is: what about slavery? Is it still practiced? Was it banned, when steam machines were invented and part of the workforce that needed slaves was replaced by machines? I can imagine both scenarios...

[Springheel]

Slavery isn't practiced in the Empire anymore, though it is still in the southern lands. Use the historical Holy Roman Empire of the 15-16th Century for inspiration and influence about how the Empire works.

[Destined]

Ok, thank you for the info!

[ERH+]

I think that would be interesting to make sort of interactive map of TDM world: any of FM authors would be asked to place a dot/link on main map (or detailed city/ country map), so you can decide with mission you want to play just by visual medium, like travelling across world. It would be more interesting for newcomers to experience TDM world by different medium than descriptions maybe?

[Sotha]

Hm. The wiki does not outline some information about the Empire in TDM setting. I was thinking about information almost all citizens would know: who is the Emperor? A dynasty perhaps? Is his seat of power in Bridgeport? Is Bridgeport the capital of the Empire? Is the Emperor elected by the Princes? (Source of lots of political intrigue). Does the Builder faith have a Pope, or other high-power figure everyone knows about.

[Springheel]

A lot of that info is covered in the wiki, to some degree....

 

there are also some areas ruled directly by the Emperor, though these are generally limited to areas around Sancta Civitas (the Holy City).

 

 

That's the capital city of the empire...basically Rome.

 

The Emperor is considered to be the spiritual subject of the Patriarch of the Church. In reality, the Patriarch has far more political influence than the Emperor, as the Builder religion remains strong throughout the empire.

 

The Patriarch is basically the Pope. He would also live in Sancta Civitas.

 

No one has really come up with names for either character, or ideas about how the Emporer is selected (I like the potential for intrigue that comes with voting). Bridgeport is not especially close the the capital.

[demagogue]

I think all of those are answered somewhere. The capital is colloquially the Holy City, formally Sancta Civitas or S.C. for short, east of Bridgeport (Bridgeport is near the Western frontier with Menoa). The Builder high priest is the head at the main basillica there, and the emperor at the palace there. Bridgeport has an archbishop at its central cathedral. I can't recall any of the names just now though.

 

Edit. I made up provisional names for the campaign I scripted, not necessarily Bridgeport of the present day.

Emperor Juvenus Ventus, preteen son of recenly deceased Fortis Ventus. Ruler is Lord Regent Curo until he comes of age. The high patriarch is Praescius I. Archbiship of Bridgeport is Taedius. Head of Bridgeport is Lord Mayor Parvus. Head of the army in SC is Imperial General Strava. Another important archbishop is Sequitus, the best candidate for next patriarch (in my vision the church has an east-west tension.) These are all my personally invented names though. Yes, they're all in Latin. In my vision, nobility have Latinized names (commoners can be Victorian English.) In the campaign it was useful because I used different languages to show different ethnic groups & classes.