Overriding tdm_weapon_arrow.script

[stgatilov]

As you probably know, overriding core files which are not specifically designed for that is fragile and unsupported.
Indeed, it usually works... until it does not

Here is the list of missions which completely override tdm_weapon_arrow.script:

•   ahouseoflockedsecrets @Moonbo
•   byanyothername @joebarnin
•   cauldron_v2_2  @kingsal
•   good @Amadeus
•   hazard @kingsal
•   northdale1 @Goldwell
•   northdale2 @Goldwell
•   seeking @Amadeus@Dragofer@Wellingtoncrab
•   snowed_inn @Goldwell @kingsal
•   written @Amadeus @Dragofer

I have just got rid of creating cvars dynamically (5600), and shooting the bow stopped working in these missions.
Because they distribute an old version of the script which runs in "debug mode" that relies on dynamic cvars. Core version was updated some time ago and this debug mode was removed.

I'd like to ask authors: why did you decide to override this script?
Perhaps we can add some customization points and delete overrides?

[Amadeus]

So this revised script is part of Kingsal's arrow mod, and the script tweaks a few values such as the ARROW_zoomdelay from "6" seconds to "3" and a few other things. I also thought this was the script that increases bow draw speed, but I guess that is done in the associated .def files instead.

These tweaks were made so that gameplay would feel a bit more fluid when drawing and firing arrows.

[Amadeus]

Why the sad face? Also, Kingsal would be better able to explain the changes, and he actually modified the script so that it is more TDM-friendly. This modified script is in Eye on the Prize and Moongate Ruckus

[joebarnin]

In By Any Other Name, I needed to deactivate the sword, bow, and blackjack for a while (during the middle part of the mission). I couldn't figure out how to "turn off" the bow, and then later turn it back on again. So I ended up cloning tdm_weapon_arrow.script, and modding it (adding a special variable that got checked when you tried to raise the bow). Pretty kludgy, and obviously can lead to breakage. (I also had to make similar changes to tdm_weapon_blackjack.script and tdm_weapon_shortsword.script.)

Maybe all I need to do is remove all of the arrow ammo. That way the bow won't raise. That still leaves the blackjack and sword. I think there was a way of deactivating weapons, but I couldn't activate them back on again (?)

 

[snatcher]

Innovation is good: someone has a new idea (or need) and executes it to the best of his/her knowledge and ability. When we start borrowing and adopting other people's innovations we are no longer innovating but creating a trend, for better or worse. Stgatilov is touching the tip of this, still small, but growing by the mission iceberg.

 

[snatcher]

1 hour ago, joebarnin said:

In By Any Other Name, I needed to deactivate the sword, bow, and blackjack for a while [...]

I will have a look. No promises eh.

[stgatilov]

1 hour ago, joebarnin said:

I think there was a way of deactivating weapons, but I couldn't activate them back on again (?)

Probably something like:

  $player1.setImmobilization("missionspecific", IM_ATTACK);
  ...
  $player1.setImmobilization("missionspecific", 0);

No idea whether it works or not --- maybe it blocks using weapons, maybe also wielding them.

[datiswous]

It would be nice if mission authors at least document what and why they override. So the player can decide to remove such overrides and get a more vanilla experience.

[Amadeus]

5 minutes ago, datiswous said:

It would be nice if mission authors at least document what and why they override. So the player can decide to remove such overrides and get a more vanilla experience.

this is how the mapper wants the player to experience the FM. If you want a different experience, the burden is then on the player. Although, there are already several existing notations in the script files and def files about what has been changed. Kingsal has been really good about this with his volta modifications, and I've tried to do this as well

[datiswous]

The script changes standard weapon behavior and you think it's not needed to inform the player?

[Amadeus]

11 minutes ago, datiswous said:

The script changes standard weapon behavior and you think it's not needed to inform the player?

"Needed"? No, not particularly. But it also depends on what the change is and how significant it is. For my FMs, the tweaks are small and I didn't really think they were worth mentioning. No one brought up a complaint about it either, so I just moved on. If you wanna know what's going on under the hood, you can always take a look at the files yourself

Edit: man, the sad emojis are out in full force today...

[datiswous]

If the change is small, it should especially be mentioned, because it's harder to notice, but obviously there is a change, because otherwise it was not implemented.

I'm not saying it's necesary for everything, but this falls under standard gameplay behavior changes.

Edited April 28, 2024 by datiswous

[Goldwell]

6 hours ago, stgatilov said:

why did you decide to override this script?

Because the default script doesn’t feel as smooth as Kingsal’s tweaked one.

 

I believe the main advantage is as Amadeus mentioned a 3 second bow draw time vs 6 seconds which feels a lot better.

 

I’m not completely married to the idea of this but if you’re able to integrate the ability for us to customize this without replacing the core files that would be appreciated.

[Amadeus]

7 minutes ago, datiswous said:

If the change is small, it should especially be mentioned, because it's harder to notice, but obviously there is a change, because otherwise it was not implemented.

 

well, I guess this is just where we disagree. It isn't really a mapper's job to inventory and highlight every change they make because most players don't have an issue with it. There are a lot more important fish to fry if you wanna get an FM released

[datiswous]

4 minutes ago, Amadeus said:

because most players don't have an issue with it.

Maybe they don't notice, but under the hood it modifies core behavior without telling.

Like I said, I think it would be nice to be informed about such things.

[Wellingtoncrab]

29 minutes ago, datiswous said:

The script changes standard weapon behavior and you think it's not needed to inform the player?

You are confusing how the core game is packaged with a "standard".

The “standard” TDM experience imo would actually be however the mission author intended the mission to be played.

There are lots of different types of missions which as experiences deviate from anything packaged in the core game. You are not owed a disclaimer.

[stgatilov]

43 minutes ago, datiswous said:

It would be nice if mission authors at least document what and why they override. So the player can decide to remove such overrides and get a more vanilla experience.

I totally agree that players usually don't care whether some non-customizable constant like bow shoot time is same as in core or not, as long as the mission plays well.

This is a problem only for TDM development.
But I don't know a proper way of solving this: mappers usually want to customize something "right now", and waiting for new release is rarely an option. And often customizations are not implemented until someone really wants them (or right away uses them), so that's also the chicken-and-egg problem here.

[datiswous]

13 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

The “standard” TDM experience imo would actually be however the mission author intended the mission to be played.

So what is the training mission for then? Apparently it's not showing standard tdm gameplay necessarily. 

Edit: Maybe it's not really worth it to keep discussing this. I mean I don't want to derail too much what the topic is actually for.

Edited April 28, 2024 by datiswous

[Wellingtoncrab]

2 minutes ago, datiswous said:

So what is the training mission for then? Apparently it's not showing standard tdm gameplay necessarily. 

The training mission’s job is not cover the diversity of FMs across the entire platform. 

There are lots of stuff in volta universe missions which are not covered: explosive barrels, ammo crystals, loot you dislodge by shooting it with an arrow, completely different undead AI with a completely different damage model, etc

Just like in northdale missions: neutral/hostile areas, in game shops, simplified lockpicks, etc

Why would you need to be told any of this is happening by anything other than the game itself? That’s how games communicate: you play them.

[snatcher]

There is a problem. You may or may not see it but the problem is there. We can do something about it or we can look the other way. It's in your hands, guys. By looking the other way you can say goodbye to future core improvements on certain features / mechanics.

 

[datiswous]

Is it not possibly to just add a small script to these missions that only does this:

#define ARROW_ZOOMDELAY	3 //VOLTA MOD

 

Edit: I haven't installed the newest tdm version yet, so I guess this might be complete nonsense..

Edited April 28, 2024 by datiswous

[stgatilov]

Do we have any volunteer to participate in fixing these missions?

The first (and perhapsthe most important) step is to download these missions, diff tdm_weapon_arrow.script against stock version, and list all the things that are actually customized.

[Amadeus]

12 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The first (and perhapsthe most important) step is to download these missions, diff tdm_weapon_arrow.script against stock version, and list all the things that are actually customized.

Why not use the modified weapon scripts from the April Fool's FMs? Those seem to be working just fine on this dev build

[snatcher]

43 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The first (and perhapsthe most important) step is to download these missions, diff tdm_weapon_arrow.script against stock version, and list all the things that are actually customized.

Complicated, heavily linked to the mission:

• ahouseoflockedsecrets
• byanyothername

ARROW_ZOOMDELAY (from 6 down to 3):

• cauldron_v2_2
• good
• hazard
• moongate
• northdale1
• northdale2
• prize
• seeking
• snowed_inn
• written

[snatcher]

42 minutes ago, Amadeus said:

Why not use the modified weapon scripts from the April Fool's FMs? Those seem to be working just fine on this dev build

Yeah, we could change ARROW_ZOOMDELAY from 6 down to 3 in core, after a good debate.

Or have an optional mod that applies to all missions.