Fan Mission: The Last Offering (2024-11-16)

[Sotha]

12 hours ago, snatcher said:

My cup of tea

BUT

I BJ'ed a guy 20 mins into the mission and he died. Not your fault (game bug) but all considered mappers probably shouldn't make the mission fail but the objective.

Thanks for this mission @Sotha, time to go back to my cave and try again in a night or two

Damn! Well, it says on the tin that TDM is *gritty* steampunk universe and if you hit someone in the head with the intention of knocking them out, you could accidentally hit too hard and smash their skull, or they could hit their head when falling.

Those no-kill, no-KO objectives I usually do are, I believe, according to the traditional thief standard: IIRC in thief 1 and 2 increasing difficulty increased gold extraction requirement and introduced no-kill and no-KO objectives.

It would be cool if we could somehow re-invent those difficulty conventions. Increasing difficulty should increase difficulty and no-kill and no-KO does exactly that. What would be another way to increase difficulty? I am all ears for better suggestions.

There could be more guards with higher difficulty, but there is no way to convey that via the objective list, which is the only way player sees the influence of the difficulty on the mission.

So difficulty must be in relation to mission objectives and what else could there be other than no-kill, no-KO objectives? Sure, they could be set as optional, but then they would have no real difficulty adjusting effect.

[Sotha]

8 hours ago, Oleron said:

Um, phrasing?

The ambiguousness of our abbreviations has always been a source of lot of fun!

[Zerush]

7 hours ago, Sotha said:

Damn! Well, it says on the tin that TDM is *gritty* steampunk universe and if you hit someone in the head with the intention of knocking them out, you could accidentally hit too hard and smash their skull, or they could hit their head when falling.

Those no-kill, no-KO objectives I usually do are, I believe, according to the traditional thief standard: IIRC in thief 1 and 2 increasing difficulty increased gold extraction requirement and introduced no-kill and no-KO objectives.

It would be cool if we could somehow re-invent those difficulty conventions. Increasing difficulty should increase difficulty and no-kill and no-KO does exactly that. What would be another way to increase difficulty? I am all ears for better suggestions.

There could be more guards with higher difficulty, but there is no way to convey that via the objective list, which is the only way player sees the influence of the difficulty on the mission.

So difficulty must be in relation to mission objectives and what else could there be other than no-kill, no-KO objectives? Sure, they could be set as optional, but then they would have no real difficulty adjusting effect.

There are already no-kill/KO missions, all these nice little ones with zombies, ghost an skeletons. In these it's difficult even to kill, or useless , like in the Lich Queen (apart of herself as the objetive of the mission).

A harder approach for more difficulty can eg. be, as in another stealth game, that the noqued guard wake  up after some minutes, searching for you. This is even more realistic. The Lich Queen is until now the only one with respawning AI.

Edited November 23 by Zerush

[snatcher]

On 11/23/2024 at 11:11 AM, Sotha said:

Those no-kill, no-KO objectives I usually do are, I believe, according to the traditional thief standard: IIRC in thief 1 and 2 increasing difficulty increased gold extraction requirement and introduced no-kill and no-KO objectives.

Missions should end prematurely when the player dies or if the player fails miserably, in example by killing a target that is key for the plot, in which case the mission is a complete failure and there is no point in continuing.

Sure, I planned not to hurt anybody but hey, it just happened. I now have a red cross in my objectives but I can choose to carry on, probably with a different mindset. Doesn't this sound like emerging gameplay?

I guess my view is that ending a mission prematurely because of no-ko's or no-kills feels meh: either go to bed or reload.

[chakkman]

On 11/23/2024 at 11:11 AM, Sotha said:

Those no-kill, no-KO objectives I usually do are, I believe, according to the traditional thief standard: IIRC in thief 1 and 2 increasing difficulty increased gold extraction requirement and introduced no-kill and no-KO objectives.

Thief 1 and 2 had, like, 1 mission each with no KO objective, and, only where it made sense, e.g. the city watch station where you weren't supposed to let anyone know that you were there.

No KO objectives don't make a lot of sense, considering that you break into someone's mansion, rob him off everything he has. He wouldn't care that you KO'd some guards in the process. On the other hand, if you cause a massacre, it will surely raise some eyebrows, that's why no kill objectives make a lot of sense.

The other unfortunate side effect of no KO objectives is that you basically tell the player "No, you cannot blackjack or kill anyone, ghost the mission.". Which robs the game of an important aspect: That the player can approach it the way he wants to approach it. 

We have a similar discussion with saving, where some authors think about doing save rooms, or even completely scratch saving. While that can appear to be a good idea, it comes with a lot of negative aspects: 1. Again, you tell the player how he is supposed to play the game, instead of letting him choose how he wants to play the game. 2. There can be issues in the map, and the player can get stuck, and, 2 hours into the mission and no saves = bummer. The game also can crash, which results in the same problem.

Thankfully, only very few missions have no KO objectives, and, it seems like FM authors realized at some point that it restricts the way people can approach the missions. It's already a bit of an issue that, when you place undead in your missions, you basically limit the player to ghosting, as there are no proper means against the undead. Even worse in TDM than in the original Thiefs, where you had at least a few tools against them. Also, many TDM FM author seem to make the undead even more unbeatable by giving them more health etc.

Edited November 24 by chakkman

[ChronA]

On 11/23/2024 at 5:11 AM, Sotha said:

It would be cool if we could somehow re-invent those difficulty conventions. Increasing difficulty should increase difficulty and no-kill and no-KO does exactly that. What would be another way to increase difficulty? I am all ears for better suggestions.

The classiest solution could be to have alternate endings. For example, one could reward the player if they successfully completed optional no-kill and no-KO objectives with an extra bit of bonus dialog or a cut scene at the end of the mission. In a multi-mission campaign you could also alter subsequent levels with more alert guards or chatter about a killer on the loose.

Obviously that would take some extra work for the mission author to implement, so I don't mean to suggest it as a prescriptive solution. But for those with the means, it would make an ideal compromise between the vision of the author and the freedom of the player.

[Sotha]

4 hours ago, ChronA said:

The classiest solution could be to have alternate endings. For example, one could reward the player if they successfully completed optional no-kill and no-KO objectives with an extra bit of bonus dialog or a cut scene at the end of the mission. In a multi-mission campaign you could also alter subsequent levels with more alert guards or chatter about a killer on the loose.

Obviously that would take some extra work for the mission author to implement, so I don't mean to suggest it as a prescriptive solution. But for those with the means, it would make an ideal compromise between the vision of the author and the freedom of the player.

But if majority of players play style is so that they reload if AI gets alerted or things go wrong, it is a terrible mistake for the mapper to spend time making content that becomes visible if AI is alerted: only a few people will see this work. This is one of the reasons I was interested in this and challenged to play without saving.

There is no point in making alternative alert patrols or other if-AI-is-alerted content. That is a lot of work and nobody will see this work. It is better to spend the effort elsewhere.

The mapper could make positive comments for fulfilling no-kill/KO objectives, but that would need debriefing with if/then logic. In TDM debriefing are quite rare and they are more work.

7 hours ago, chakkman said:

Thief 1 and 2 had, like, 1 mission each with no KO objective, and, only where it made sense, e.g. the city watch station where you weren't supposed to let anyone know that you were there.

No KO objectives don't make a lot of sense, considering that you break into someone's mansion, rob him off everything he has. He wouldn't care that you KO'd some guards in the process. On the other hand, if you cause a massacre, it will surely raise some eyebrows, that's why no kill objectives make a lot of sense.

The other unfortunate side effect of no KO objectives is that you basically tell the player "No, you cannot blackjack or kill anyone, ghost the mission.". Which robs the game of an important aspect: That the player can approach it the way he wants to approach it. 

We have a similar discussion with saving, where some authors think about doing save rooms, or even completely scratch saving. While that can appear to be a good idea, it comes with a lot of negative aspects: 1. Again, you tell the player how he is supposed to play the game, instead of letting him choose how he wants to play the game. 2. There can be issues in the map, and the player can get stuck, and, 2 hours into the mission and no saves = bummer. The game also can crash, which results in the same problem.

Thankfully, only very few missions have no KO objectives, and, it seems like FM authors realized at some point that it restricts the way people can approach the missions. It's already a bit of an issue that, when you place undead in your missions, you basically limit the player to ghosting, as there are no proper means against the undead. Even worse in TDM than in the original Thiefs, where you had at least a few tools against them. Also, many TDM FM author seem to make the undead even more unbeatable by giving them more health etc.

Let's talk about difficulty, too. There was only one mission with no-KO objective in all of difficulties in Thief games (IIRC, could be wrong), but most missions had *difficulty* based no-kill objectives.

Are you OK with no-KO and no-kill objectives appearing with higher difficulties and the normal difficulty not having those at all? Then players who like the challenge can choose a higher difficulty and those who do not like them, can take the normal one. That is the idea of the difficulty selection: the player who is more confident with their skills can take extra challenge.

A side note: fire arrows and explosive mines instakill zombies and revenants in TDM. There are very effective tools against the undead. I agree that holywater is too weak in TDM.

 

8 hours ago, snatcher said:

Missions should end prematurely when the player dies or if the player fails miserably, in example by killing a target that is key for the plot, in which case the mission is a complete failure and there is no point in continuing.

Sure, I planned not to hurt anybody but hey, it just happened. I now have a red cross in my objectives but I can choose to carry on, probably with a different mindset. Doesn't this sound like emerging gameplay?

I guess my view is that ending a mission prematurely because of no-ko's or no-kills feels meh: either go to bed or reload.

Failed no-kill objective = meh: This is true, therefore good alternatives for no-KO and no-KILL objectives are needed. One can make the objective optional, true, but what is the purpose of it then, it is more like a recommendation and failing it has no consequences, other than a red cross on objective list.

So until now I don't see options for no-KO and no-kill objectives. Summary:

*optional objective is not a difficulty modifying objective. Difficulty objectives should modify mission difficulty.

*there is probably no point in making additional content with alterted-AI or violated no-KO or no-kill objectives, because most of the people will never see that content.

*Positive feedback for non-violated no-kill/KO objectives would need special debriefing, which are more work for low impact (although I agree they would be a nice finishing touch.)

[datiswous]

5 hours ago, Sotha said:

The mapper could make positive comments for fulfilling no-kill/KO objectives, but that would need debriefing with if/then logic. In TDM debriefing are quite rare and they are more work.

The text debriefing is only recently introduced as a feature in tdm (2.13 dev). So I can see it being rare currently.

 

5 hours ago, Sotha said:

*there is probably no point in making additional content with alterted-AI or violated no-KO or no-kill objectives, because most of the people will never see that content.

Maybe it's possible to change some things automatically in the mission every time on load of a save.

[ChronA]

@Sotha Okay, so you are looking for a means to materially incentivize no-KO and no-kill, without a hard loss condition, and without majorly increased production work. Also I assume you don't want gamy-nonsense like just instantly alerting everyone in the area when the deed is done, regardless of the lack of witnesses. Fair enough.

How about this then? Split your map into two or more areas. Then have a trigger so that when the player breaks the optional objectives, the alert level increases in all the areas except the one that the player is in. Lastly have a trigger so that when the player leaves the area where they did the deed, the alert level in the area they left behind is increased (perhaps even more than the other areas). This could simulate the idea that the person you eliminated failed to check in or something like that, and it caused an alert to be raised, without massively increasing the complexity of the scripting or requiring custom assets.

You could also take this concept even further by de-spawning some easy to grab loot at respawing it in a more secure location at the same time the alerts are triggered. Locking up the valuables is a reasonable response when something is amiss.

[Sotha]

That is an interesting concept: if enough AI in area one are KO'd or killed, then the second area security gets beefed up.

Probably works in smaller missions too. If mansion outside guards get KOd, the fully armored guard get a "bad feeling" and he puts all the lights on and goes stand in front of the display case where the main target of the mission is located.

I like it!

[chakkman]

9 hours ago, Sotha said:

Are you OK with no-KO and no-kill objectives appearing with higher difficulties and the normal difficulty not having those at all? 

No. I prefer no no-KO objective on any difficulty, and, if the FM author wants, a no kill objective, as that makes sense in my eyes, as there is a difference between a burglary and a massacre. Even in the medieval Thief setting, a murder weighs more than a burglary.

Again, what you do with that in your missions is your thing. I'm merely pointing out why I think that it's not a good idea to restrict the way people play. Same with save rooms.

Edited November 25 by chakkman

[wesp5]

14 minutes ago, Sotha said:

That is an interesting concept: if enough AI in area one are KO'd or killed, then the second area security gets beefed up.

That only works if there is anybody left to notice that somebody has been knocked out which never happens when I play ;). Otherwise it would look like the second area security magically knows what has happened, like in the Dishonored games...

[chakkman]

Well, exactly. If you KO and hide the bodies, how would anyone notice that there is something wrong, and hit the alarm? That would make sense if an A.I. finds a body. 

[datiswous]

1 hour ago, ChronA said:

This could simulate the idea that the person you eliminated failed to check in or something like that, and it caused an alert to be raised

@wesp5, @chakkmanI think you guys missed this part.

[Sotha]

1 hour ago, datiswous said:

@wesp5, @chakkmanI think you guys missed this part.

There is actually even an entity specifically for this kind of stuff: trigger_inactivity.

AI walks through a security room with some guards playing cards. The mapper notes that the patrol cycle is so that the AI visits the security room every X seconds. The mapper decides that if the AI is gone for 3*X seconds, the guards note the AIs absence and toss the playing cards aside and start patrolling.

 

And yeah, then the player knocks them out, too.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, datiswous said:

@wesp5, @chakkmanI think you guys missed this part.

That would imply that the guards check in any few minutes because this is usually the time I need to knock them out :).

Edited November 25 by wesp5

[snatcher]

I like your attitude @Sotha.

To everyone: how about we start by fixing the bugs?

On 11/22/2024 at 10:18 PM, snatcher said:

I BJ'ed a guy 20 mins into the mission and he died. Not your fault (game bug) [...]

[teknokrat]

I think the no-KO as a difficulty setting misses the point. The mapper can already makes this harder via greater lighting, guard pathing, wearing of helmets, and difficulty of finding hiding places. The point of difficulty in thief games to my mind, is to make playing more challenging, not in eliminating entire play styles.

[chakkman]

Exactly.

[grodenglaive]

On 11/16/2024 at 11:33 AM, Sotha said:

Build time: roughly 30 h darkradiant time during october-november 2024.

I'm in awe that one could build such a fine mission in only 30 hours!

[MirceaKitsune]

A very nice short FM! Found most loot, was short of about 200: As it's a small FM I may replay it on all difficulty levels since why not?