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Berny

Things that could be improved

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That means, if you are near that standard distance and height, it works. If not, you can get clatter, things flying around, etc.

 

If thats the cause, it might be nice if what you grab could be grabbed exactly as you frob it, with you then working from there, but I am not sure if thats possible.

That sounds like a good idea. A candlestick already tries to get in front of your eyes when you pick it up -- that's the skill in lifting it off the surface silently -- but the distance seems a bit unpredictable. That's just my impression from playing; I haven't checked the code. Perhaps we should attempt to preserve the distance when you pick up? You'd still use skill to lift the candle instead of scraping it along the tabletop. What do people think?

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I don't remember any justification for why it works the way it does now. It would seem like having the object stay where it is when frobbed would be the obvious default choice.

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I'm not sure the candle-stick/grab issue is something we should fix. It actually means there is some sort of "build-in" skill - if you know how, you can grab stuff silently, if not, you might get clatter.

 

That makes things more interesting and a bit unpredictable, and also depending on the player skill, and not always "it automatically works".

 

(It's abit like the "if you jump from high enough, it hurts, but if you crouch and then jump, it makes less noise.". Technically, the engine could ensure that it minimzes the noise by auto-crouching first. Might be a bad example, but you get hopefully my idea).

 

Of course, if it is too annoying, we might improve a bit.

 

The examples of the stones and the planks - well, the physics is quite whacky, and the weights are not well-adjusted. Me thinks these are sep. issues from the "grab stuff".


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Playing a mission now which involved the undead, I was hiding behind some crates in an area until they cleared or thinned out. - Their noises are great, very suitable for their.... condition I was admiring that when I suddenly saw one come into the area I was hiding, and he looked around. I could have sworn he was making ( among others) sniffing sounds. I panic thought for a second " Can these things smell me?" I calmed down and knew they did not.

 

I was just toying with the idea if they could - would this be hard to implement? I think the fright level would go up a big notch if these things could find you through by "smell" These and guards seem to gravitate to you in hiding to some degree anyway, would be neat if the undead could hone in better and make sniffing sounds like an animal especially as they get closer to you...

 

just a thought...

 

 

Thanks for all the hard work!

 

I also mentioned this some time ago, when we were talking about horror. It seems to me that it would more akin to a legendary creature to sense you somehow. Having a faint radar-like sense to zombies, coupled with the regular (toned down) sight and hearing, would make them more unpredictable and a more respectable (frightening). Same for haunts or any undead.

 

Guards gravitate to you because their senses become sharper as they get suspucious. Thats a cool feature for sure. But being able to fool magical creatures the same way you would an ordinary man doesnt feel right for me.

 

The same kind of could be said of werewolves. Having their senses at about the same level as human AI would be pretty hard to swallow/believe. You would expect magical wolf creatures to be able to smell you and hear and see you in the dark better than any human (or wolf, for that matter). This makes them a pretty harsh enemy choice for a sneaking game. More like a boss you should keep away from or defeat with fire arrows or whatever. Definitely not someone you would expect to be able to crawl around from right under their noses.

Edited by RPGista

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Classic thief didnt have many in game scripted scenes from what I recall, but those are important in horror missions. The fear factor in there were the disturbing sounds they make, the gloomy maps, the ambiance. But more recent games have experimented a lot with building tension and releasing it in the form of custom made in game sequences, which I find work a lot better to scare the player than finding yourself inside a crypt, figuring out all the abstract routes zombies are following and avoiding them.

 

In a dream scenario, it would be great to have the well choreagraphed human AI we have in TDM (locked in routes, plus their specific behaviours when alerted/fighting weve come to expect), as well as more free range enemies that could be more of an action challenge than a sneaking one (monsters that could jump around the environment, hit you with animated special moves, knock you down or hold you down, things of this sort) - those could be used for specific scenes inside the mission, like when you finally meet the evil mage or when you find your way inside the wrong sacred, forgotten tomb and wakes something nasty in there. But that would mean a level of production value that is not available right now.

Edited by RPGista

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I'm not sure the candle-stick/grab issue is something we should fix. It actually means there is some sort of "build-in" skill - if you know how, you can grab stuff silently, if not, you might get clatter.

You'll still need to learn and use skill to pick up a candle without scraping it, by aiming slightly above it when you pick it up.The problem with having the object's distance change is that the player can't control that by aiming with the mouse. It's a different and far less natural-feeling skill, making sure you are standing the right distance away when you pick up an object. And sometimes it's impossible if the object is in a container.

 

The examples of the stones and the planks - well, the physics is quite whacky, and the weights are not well-adjusted. Me thinks these are sep. issues from the "grab stuff".

Agreed, that's a separate issue, possibly exacerbated by the grabber's unwieldiness.

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Smelling would need to be signaled to the player. Sniffing would do the job. That's one reason I'd vote for dogs to be the official sniffers for the game, since their sniffing is so characteristic and easy to see and hear.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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How would smelling actually work? Does the ai just 'know' where the player is? How does the player defend against this?

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For dogs, my vision is that they'd have an elaborate & drawn-out routine that gradually walks them in the direction of the player -- sniffing on the ground in a wavy line, generally slowly towards the player over time, and with periodic random losses of the scent & searching detours (sniffing up in the air and going in a circle as if "searching" for the scent), and reacquiring the scent and going back to the approach state with nose to the ground. Also periodic barking in the direction of the player, or to nearby friendly AI as if to direct them in the direction of the player.

 

When they have acquired the scent, they don't know the location of the player. They know a vector pointing in the player's direction, and they follow that vector imprecisely. Edit: I think if the player moves enough distance, that might trigger a loss of scent transition... So there's two general states that take the place of other AI searching states, "searching for scent" and "scent acquired & slow approach" states and the transitions between them (not counting the "vis-alert" state when the dog sees the player).

 

As for the gameplay uses, how the player reacts, my thinking is dogs are a slow means to force a player to move from a comfortable hiding spot, and the compensation is that they're quite slow and loud about it, so the player knows they're slowly encroaching closer over a period of time. It's up to the mapper to make sure that they're used in a fair & fun way that works well in the scene they have. Like I think they're more fit for bigger open spaces where they have the time and space to sniff out the player, there's tension building over that period, & the player usually has a ready escape route backwards and around.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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How would smelling actually work? Does the ai just 'know' where the player is? How does the player defend against this?

Mark of ninja had dogs, and they worked like this:

1) there is a smell radius around the dog. If the player is within this radius, the dog catches scent.

2) The dogs smells the air, and starts very slowly progress towards the player. The dog occasionally stops sniffing air turning around. But always it moves slowly towards the player.

3) If the player moves out from the smell radius, the dog loses scent, smells a bit around, then returns back to its normal activitites.

 

Gameplaywise, the dog is an area denial element, similar to bright lights and security cameras, but a mobile one and covers dark areas, too.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The stim/response system would come in quite handy here. It would also allow us to let sniffers follow the players trail of scent.


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Here's one thing that bothers me about the zombies: they should not close doors behind them. That doesn't fit their mindless nature in my opinion.

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The stim/response system would come in quite handy here. It would also allow us to let sniffers follow the players trail of scent.

 

I imagine to do it properly, the AI code should have new alert states for sniffers that handle scent alerts directly, since they'd operate differently than searching and vis-alert states I think.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Agreed, cant we set zombie not to close doors..?

As far as I know, there isn't an arg for the AI. The mappers can set 'ai_should_not_close' on a door, but in that case the all AI (not just zombies) will avoid closing that door.

 

 

P.S. Would you be able to blackjack a dog?

 

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Agreed, cant we set zombie not to close doors..?

 

 

I thought they were set that way by default.

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I thought they were set that way by default.

 

Yep, they have "canOperateDoors 0"

 

This means that if zombies operate in areas with doors, they are quite crippled as the player can simply evade them by closing a door. Just silly!

 

I had to give them "canOperateDoors 1" in Glenham because a zombie operating doors was less bad than zombie completely crippled by closed doors.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I would love dogs also, and I brought that up a very long time ago, - but was told then to create a dog frame, movements, behavior etc would put it waaay down on the list... and understandably so with respect to yet what had to be done..

 

So I thought this could be applied to the undead, many aspects of the needed construct is there compared to a dog.

 

Sotha referring to ninja below, pretty much captures the program design.

 

Not thinking they are magical creatures (werewolves etc.... but then again, they are dead and moving...), but with debilitated brain power, thought the undead brain would compensate with an improved sense such as smelling, which as in a previous post above, would force a player "out of hiding" in short time by an undead within a given radius. This would be a frighteningly intense stressor.

 

If coming within a certain player radius a zombie pauses and while looking around, makes a loud rapid, sniffing sound , that would be very unnerving-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mark of ninja had dogs, and they worked like this:
1) there is a smell radius around the dog. If the player is within this radius, the dog catches scent.
2) The dogs smells the air, and starts very slowly progress towards the player. The dog occasionally stops sniffing air turning around. But always it moves slowly towards the player.
3) If the player moves out from the smell radius, the dog loses scent, smells a bit around, then returns back to its normal activitites.

Gameplaywise, the dog is an area denial element, similar to bright lights and security cameras, but a mobile one and covers dark areas, too.

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Yep, they have "canOperateDoors 0"

I had to give them "canOperateDoors 1" in Glenham because a zombie operating doors was less bad than zombie completely crippled by closed doors.

Ok, Glenham was the mission were I noticed that. I think a good compromise would be zombies only opening doors but not closing them behind them.

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There's the Minecraft approach where zombies loudly bang on doors for a few seconds, and then the door flies open (if it's unlocked) as if beat open. And no closing behind them.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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My suggestion to improve gameplay is for the ability to push the AI. There are times when I'm hiding in the corner and the AI bumps into me while searching. Naturally I can't move and the only thing I can do is draw my sword and block his attacks while trying to kill him. Most of the time I just die and have to reload a save. It would be nice to be able to shove him out of the way and make a run for it.

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Hai dere boyz, I haven't read all the topic and I wanna know, is it planned to implement a player model so we wouldn't look down and see an empty space?

It was really cool in Thief 3. Moreover, the player's model was also making a shadow. And it would be GREAT (as TDM is already) if enemies reacted not only on player in sight, but on his shadow, too!

I've used to watching my lurky shadow on a wall when I'm creeping past it, it's so athmospheric, woohoo.

 

TDM is great, you've surely heard this many time, so, nuff said. Just great.


Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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My suggestion to improve gameplay is for the ability to push the AI. There are times when I'm hiding in the corner and the AI bumps into me while searching. Naturally I can't move and the only thing I can do is draw my sword and block his attacks while trying to kill him. Most of the time I just die and have to reload a save. It would be nice to be able to shove him out of the way and make a run for it.

This would be implemented as a 'foot sweep' while crouching... Maybe, you pull an opponent's feet and he falls. But, must be a long pause between uses, so you wouldn't strew all enemies around and leave promenading.

 

This would differ according to enemy type; For example, you can easily catch a hard armored Hammerite's leg and pull it and he falls, losing his balance, but when doing this with a common thug not wearing heavy irons, it would not work. It may only stun him for 1-2 seconds, as though he fenced and made a mistake.

Edited by Scampada

Stop taffering there, criminal taffer!

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