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Steam Greenlight: TDM is ranked #1 atm.


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#551 Atomica

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:22 AM

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Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:26 PM.

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#552 chakkman

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:26 AM

Yeah, also, don't forget that there isn't "one" Steam community. It really depends on the game. You won't find any Counterstrike pwner idiots on ArmA groups, for example. I'm pretty convinced of that.

 

Nothing against Counterstrike players. I think you know what i mean. ;)


Edited by chakkman, 17 July 2018 - 08:27 AM.


#553 Atomica

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 08:29 AM

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Edited by Atomica, 01 August 2018 - 11:26 PM.

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#554 wesp5

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 09:39 AM

Yeah as chakkman said while I was typing this (heh), discoverability would still work if someone was specifically looking for stealth games with appropriate tags and whatnot.

Yeah, but how many of those players of all Thief games don't know about TDM already? Also the people wanting everything on Steam are usually the worst technical speaking and can't do anything on their computer unless Steam does it for them. I know this from experience with my Bloodlines patch, each time there is a sale, there are dozends on new players not able to install an executable to the right place or check the readme for help! I wouldn't dare to think what they'd say to the TDM auto-updater or the mission downloader unless this has been included in a Steam workflow as well ;)...


Edited by wesp5, 17 July 2018 - 09:40 AM.

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#555 Abusimplea

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 11:08 AM

Yeah, but how many of those players of all Thief games don't know about TDM already?

We will never know.

 

There might be players who would not touch the ole Thief games but would like TDM - if they would knew of its existence. I myself did play the old Thief games years later because i simply did not know of them. And i would not touch them now because they became too ugly over time (TDS might still be okay graphically but it has load zones and it has been left behind by TDMs gameplay).

Even the oldest TDM missions feature much better graphics and more advanced mechanics than the old Thief games. Even the new Thief is no match against TDM when it comes to level design and gameplay.

 

I stumbled upon the old Thief games by chance years after their release. after that i knew i was into stealth, so i actively searched for stealth games and started with TDM as it still required Doom 3.

But there might be other players who do not know how to find the gems yet. Maybe they do not even know, that they like to play stealth games - the AAA games often feature a heavily watered down take on the genre that might be more a chore than fun.

 

Beeing on Steam would certainly help some players find the gem they never knew they wanted. But i too don't think, it will happen. There still is the Youtube channel though...



#556 wesp5

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Posted 17 July 2018 - 11:23 AM

But there might be other players who do not know how to find the gems yet. Maybe they do not even know, that they like to play stealth games - the AAA games often feature a heavily watered down take on the genre that might be more a chore than fun.

If they don't know they love Stealth, Steam would not suggest TDM anyway. The last AAA game similar to TDM was the Dishonored series, in which stealth was not only possible but favored too! Is there any way to connect TDM with Dishonored on YouTube or elsewhere?



#557 Anderson

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Posted 18 July 2018 - 01:01 AM

Yeah, also, don't forget that there isn't "one" Steam community. It really depends on the game. You won't find any Counterstrike pwner idiots on ArmA groups, for example. I'm pretty convinced of that.

 

Nothing against Counterstrike players. I think you know what i mean. ;)

 

 

That is indeed true. But you'll sometimes get crossover from trolling folks since there's no barrier to posting wherever you like on whatever gaming discussion page you want in the Steam forums.

 

The general steam discussion pages though... oh boy. Those sections can make you lose your faith in humanity (or make me worry about what my kid might start posting once he's old enough to do so). :)

 

The worst are usually the highly competitive games such as Dota (and all other MOBA's), Counter Strike, maybe even Team Fortress 2 for the competitive part and basically all of the MMO's in existence.  

 

If however you were to look at cooperative games, yeah you still get bad people in Killing Floor, No More Room in Hell, Left 4 Dead. But the gameplay itself encourages cooperation and it's easier to kick inadequate people than to bother continuing. Also bad players in such games often just get swarmed and die early before doing any serious damage + team killing is usually off. If it's not off than there's a password.

 

And there's of course ArmA, Red Orchestra, Insurgency, Worms and whatnot but again, not exactly the place where toxic community comes in.

 

So, for the most part the new people that would check out The Dark Mod would just not be tech savvy for the most part. Maybe a little whiny but c'est la vie. 

A cool thing that comes to mind is how people continue making good things with mods and Steam Workshop to Gunpoint if we're focusing on stealth games on this matter.

 

Seeing though that TDM is on hiatus with Steam, nothing is lost and nothing is gained by not moving it forward. Life goes on.


Edited by Anderson, 18 July 2018 - 01:18 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#558 Bikerdude

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 04:31 AM

As there seems to be a big push to get steam games working under Linux, might this be a good to to re-approach valve and the licensing issue again..?

 

@Nbmohr1more, might it be working updating some of the bigger linux gaming pages with our info, assuming this hasn't been done already?


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#559 snobel

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 06:37 AM

Maybe you could join forces with the SuperTuxKart team? They're GPL too and were greenlit around the same time as TDM - and are facing the same issues:

There's still some work to be done before SuperTuxKart appears on Steam, including paperwork but also evaluating options for integration with the Steamworks API and how that can be combined with our GPL license.

 

 

...and when you're successful, to celebrate: a TDM SuperTuxKart crossover mission! :)



#560 freyk

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:11 AM

As there seems to be a big push to get steam games working under Linux

To be precise, they added option to steam, to run windows games under linux using a fork(?) of WINE and a directx to vulkan part, called Proton.
And we know that TDM run good on WINE. But i havent tested it yet on Proton.

More info
https://github.com/V...n_3.7/README.md
And
https://arstechnica....mes-to-linux/es

i love to see TDM on steam.

Edited by freyk, 23 September 2018 - 07:28 AM.


#561 Springheel

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 07:55 AM

Unless Valve's requirements have suddenly changed, there's not much point in revisiting this. 


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#562 freyk

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:00 PM

What are the requirements from Valve we can't meet?

Only the texture thing? or something else?



#563 Bikerdude

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Posted 23 September 2018 - 03:40 PM

or something else?

From memory its a few things, but the biggest is the creative commons license we use. The initial terms we got from them were not compatible with the way the team/mod function and as a team we internally, couldnt resolve the conflicts we had with said terms.


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#564 demagogue

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 07:26 AM

- You mean GPL3 license. If you integrate Steam code into TDM code, then a GPL license will require the source to be released. It's not clear that Steam code is necessary though. (E.g., we don't really need achievements, and I believe the Steam shell for screenshots doesn't need the code, etc.) But they (Steam people) were still quite discouraging about it, saying in their experience it's knocked most other GPL projects out, but not all. (I had the impression though that ones that passed were, e.g., where the original licensor could license Steam around the GPL themselves, which doesn't apply to us since the GPL was set by id and not us. But I don't know that for sure.)

- We need to give them some kind of accounting for our assets that satisfies them that they're clear under IP law. Creative Commons might be a thing there?

- We have to create a legal entity to be responsible for any issues, which would likely be some kind of non-profit in probably Canada (where we have the most mods/admins), which involves forms and fees and a few annual duties like reporting and accounting. This was a part that could run against how the team/mod functions.

 

I think those are the major things. There hasn't been much momentum for any of them. We still remember the hassle of dealing with assets from the move to 2.0 standalone. And there's a chicken-egg issue with the entity maybe. It's a pain to set up a legal entity and deal with things like tax exemption, appointing a board of directors, reporting duties, etc, when we don't even know if the GPL thing will really be cleared and if our accounting will be sufficient, and then we've set it up for naught... I suppose realistically, we would go in with the IP accounting and proposal to keep Steam code out first and only set up the entity at the very end if those are cleared and we're guaranteed to get it once we do it, since it's crossing a hard-to-uncross line. (There also might be a culture change involved, since it pushes us to formalize things that are quite informal right now, and generally we've liked informality. That's the part about how the team/mod functions. But that might not be a big deal; I'm not sure.)

 

If somebody is really motivated, they could go about making an IP accounting of our assets to start off. It's all accessible or can be made accessible if someone asks, and it's not like they're at any more disadvantage than anyone on the team. And then show us and we can talk about it from there. That's no small task, but maybe it's not a bad project for someone thinking "what's the big holdup anyway?" about what we're really dealing with.

 

Edit: There's been a debate about the pros and cons and issues too, much of it in this thread, so one should also read up on the different opinions out there too. Doing that one task doesn't necessarily resolve the other debates out there, like how the mod operates.


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#565 wesp5

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 09:02 AM

What demagogue posted sounds to me like a lot of work, time and effort for little gain that could better be spend elsewhere. After all with Valve's new "pay us 100,-$ regardless of what you produce and you are on Steam" policy, bad games drowning out good ones should make Steam worse as a platform to be visible as time progresses...


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#566 Anderson

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 11:11 AM

- accounting 

 

If I may ask, wouldn't it be easier to hire some accountant from Canada of whom anyone might know or who can be contracted to do the yearly accounting and documenting all taxes and all that? After all for a non-profit with no income it's mostly a freelancer's part time job. Presumably it shouldn't be a lot of work either. 

Obviously this means that the accountant is a good friend or some such thing with you so that you're all in touch and he is available when needed. Would be good to consult a lawyer too on the tax exemptions maybe.

In any case you don't need to have extremely formal relations. You just need time and a little spare money. But if really necessary, the monetary part can be solved with Patreon specifically for this sole purpose if there's no spare finances anyone in the team can spend under the auspices of a kind heart and generous voluntary activism (which is fair, nobody should carry this rock alone).

 

The other unaddressed issue is TDM on GOG.com. Would launching there be easier in this regard?


Edited by Anderson, 25 September 2018 - 11:13 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#567 Bikerdude

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 11:52 AM

- We need to give them some kind of accounting for our assets that satisfies them that they're clear under IP law. Creative Commons might be a thing there?

- We have to create a legal entity to be responsible for any issues, which would likely be some kind of non-profit in probably Canada (where we have the most mods/admins), which involves forms and fees and a few annual duties like reporting and accounting. This was a part that could run against how the team/mod functions.

Ahd those were the other issues, that I couldnt remember

  • If I may ask, wouldn't it be easier to hire some accountant
  • The other unaddressed issue is TDM on GOG.com.
  • The mod isnt flush with cash, Taaaki and I did get a Paypal account setup (which I assume is still active) but due to various issues, this hasent been finalised.
  • I emailed them on 2 occasion and never got a reply back, I guess we could try for a 3rd time.

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#568 freyk

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 12:37 PM

Thank you for sharing the requirements with the community.
I hope we can solve this problem, like a community.

How about creating a sepparate steam api communication pk4 package?
That is Communicating with the steam api.
I think you can publisch that part under a gpl license.

Edited by freyk, 25 September 2018 - 01:35 PM.


#569 Obsttorte

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 01:40 PM

I never really got why this should be of any importance to us. Having TDM on Steam or GOG may or may not create a little bit of extra attention, but most probably not in a size that it would be worthwhile to invest a higher effort into it. This has been discussed and I think the team agreed that the possible benefit is not worth the effort, not to mention that as posted by demagogue some of the requirements simple don't fit the way the mod works.

 

No need to discuss this once again imho.


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#570 Judith

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 02:21 PM

AFAIK, having a legal entity would mean either a business or some kind of trust or foundation. Any of those needs upkeep and profits, so it's rather out of question for free community initiative like Dark Mod.



#571 wesp5

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Posted 25 September 2018 - 03:02 PM

Having TDM on Steam or GOG may or may not create a little bit of extra attention, but most probably not in a size that it would be worthwhile to invest a higher effort into it.

I agree. Maybe it would be better if you improve your ModDB page a bit! Like there is a very long article about 2.06, but no actual file to download for new players, only updates or cryptic betas or fixes or installers. Probably the GUI installer is the one to choose, but I think this is not obvious! Also there is a fixed mission listed too, which probably should be in addons of the mod. And there are lots and lots of completely outdated versions and updates. Someone should clean this up and regularily post something there, to keep it high on the recent changed list and raise attention!


Edited by wesp5, 25 September 2018 - 03:04 PM.

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#572 Anderson

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 12:18 AM

 

 

  • I emailed them on 2 occasion and never got a reply back, I guess we could try for a 3rd time.

 

 

Maybe it went into their spam somehow, try sending from another email? Again, no guarantees but better than nothing. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • The mod isnt flush with cash, Taaaki and I did get a Paypal account setup (which I assume is still active) but due to various issues, this hasent been finalised.

     

     

Costs and expenses can be paid by people from the money gained on Patreon.

 


Edited by Anderson, 27 September 2018 - 12:26 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#573 Bikerdude

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Posted 27 September 2018 - 02:27 AM

Maybe it went into their spam somehow, try sending from another email? Again, no guarantees but better than nothing.

This will have to be considered by the team.






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