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#1 GilGiy

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 08:42 PM

So I recently reinstalled the Dark Mod to do some more gameplay--and I am really really enjoying the game. This is totally my favorite type of game...first person, dark vibes, slow, clear objectives, puzzles and strategies to figure out, and really it's the only game other than Theif that is like this... Absolutely amazed at what the team has accomplished. However, here are a few ideas I have that I think would help possibly refine the experience or enhance the gameplay

  • When you draw (switch to) the blackjack, the sound is very loud--kinda like he's setting up a tent or something, it doesn't feel very stealthy.
  • When you accidentally raise your blackjack, there is no good way of lowering it without being loud as well, just look at the sky and hope it doesn't hit a wall on the way down.
  • Objects clattering around. This is one of the only things that really annoys me (in the game that is). Maybe it's selecting a candle to put it out or accidentally picking up a wine bottle you thought was valuable--trying to set it down can turn into a loud series of crashing/clanking sounds that alert guards for miles around.
  • Peering, looking into chests is an absolute nightmare when you are trying to stay low...if you are crouched you have to crawl on top of the chest, maybe where, on selecting/opening a chest, he leans forward and peers in, giving you a clear top down view of the contents
  • Flattening yourself against the wall. I would love to see this implemented, the ability to back into a wall and maybe press the sneak key or something to make the thief suck in his breath and flatten himself into the wall, reducing his visibility and making it less likely are guard will bump into him, this would be super handy when trapped in a tight hallway...

 

I do recognize that the developers are extremely busy right now, and they also have lives to live so I completely understand, I think the work done so far is absolutely phenomenal. I would absolutely love to contribute somehow, possibly when I've graduated school in a few weeks...

 

 

Cheers

 


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#2 Springheel

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Posted 25 April 2018 - 10:23 PM

Welcome and thanks for the feedback!  A couple quick thoughts:

 

-- pretty sure you can cancel a raised blackjack by switching to a different weapon, or pressing the clear weapons button.

--have you tried the "lean forward" key when looking into chests?  That can help.


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#3 Destined

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 12:42 AM

Welcome to the forums!

 

If you accidentally pick up an object you can release it again without making any sound, as long as you do not move (neither change your view with the mouse nor your position with the keyboard). The object remains, wehre it is, as long as you did not move. If you have already moved, you can also try to lower the object to the surface again, before releasing it. This way it should also not make any sound. Granted, it requires a bit of practice, but it works. Have you played the training mission? I think object handling is also covered in it.



#4 Judith

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 02:34 AM

As for objects, that's kind of mappers choice and taste. I don't like having a thousand insignificant bottles interactive, but there are mappers who think that adds to the world being more realistic.

 

Using chests and drawers is the similar problem. While there was a "lean forward" move in original Thief 1 and 2, the game never forced you to use it. But there are mappers who claim this is as natural as using WASD.


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#5 Bikerdude

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 02:35 AM

  • Peering, looking into chests is an absolute nightmare when you are trying to stay low...if you are crouched you have to crawl on top of the chest, maybe where, on selecting/opening a chest, he leans forward and peers in, giving you a clear top down view of the contents

This is more a mapping problem which mission authors can negate by tweaking the frob values (frob_distance and frobbox_size), but maybe moving forward this can be pre-tweaked in the core mode as a lot of mappers forget to do the above tweakes.


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#6 GilGiy

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for the welcomes,

 

So last night I played "Mission 1: A New Job" I thought the map was excellent.

 

--have you tried the "lean forward" key when looking into chests?  That can help.

 

I didn't actually realize that was a thing, so ya that does help quite a bit, though it still isn't perfect. To be "perfect" the thief should lean forward and lift his head a bit to "peer over" the edge of the chest.

 

 

If you accidentally pick up an object you can release it again without making any sound, as long as you do not move

 

Usually when this happens to me, it's when I find a tabletop with some coins and a goblet. After I rapidly snatch up the coins I'll impulsively also grab the goblet and since it doesn't get collected I end up dragging it across the top of the table or even drop it. I've decided its a matter of being very careful--cause I'm supposed to be, you know, a thief. I'm not spending enough effort being quiet.

 

 

-- pretty sure you can cancel a raised blackjack by switching to a different weapon, or pressing the clear weapons button.

 

This works, thanks!

 

 

This is more a mapping problem which mission authors can negate by tweaking the frob values (frob_distance and frobbox_size), but maybe moving forward this can be pre-tweaked in the core mode as a lot of mappers forget to do the above tweakes.

 

^Something to keep in mind if I ever build a mission...


Edited by GilGiy, 26 April 2018 - 07:16 AM.


#7 Springheel

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 08:18 AM

Thanks for the welcomes,

 

So last night I played "Mission 1: A New Job" I thought the map was excellent.

 

 

Usually when this happens to me, it's when I find a tabletop with some coins and a goblet. After I rapidly snatch up the coins I'll impulsively also grab the goblet and since it doesn't get collected I end up dragging it across the top of the table or even drop it. I've decided its a matter of being very careful--cause I'm supposed to be, you know, a thief. I'm not spending enough effort being quiet.

 

 

 

Glad you liked the mission! :)

 

Dealing with "junk" objects does take some practice.  Especially when you're still learning what is and isn't loot, it's common to wind up picking up a bunch of stuff and making noise.  As you say, if you're careful you'll quickly figure out how to carefully lift stuff up and put it down without making any noise.

 

You're also not wrong about the awkwardness of getting things out of chests.  We've steered away from any context-dependent animations or movements, so having the player move differently around chests isn't something we're liable to do.  Making chests a bit lower, so the player doesn't have to look down so much, might be an option.


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#8 AluminumHaste

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 12:02 PM

While there was a "lean forward" move in original Thief 1 and 2, the game never forced you to use it. But there are mappers who claim this is as natural as using WASD.

 

What? Lean Forward was the most useful lean in the game. I used that more than lean left or right, in fact I don't remember the last time I used lean left or right, but I use forward constantly.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#9 Judith

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 12:20 PM

I never ever used lean forward whether in Thief 1, 2 or in FMs. All keys around WASD are bound to lean sideways, crouching, using items, etc. Also I can't think of a single game that would require you to use it, so I think demanting it from players would be a pretty bad idea.


Edited by Judith, 26 April 2018 - 12:21 PM.

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#10 wesp5

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 01:12 PM

I never ever used lean forward whether in Thief 1, 2 or in FMs. All keys around WASD are bound to lean sideways, crouching, using items, etc.

I never use leaning at all in any game, TDM included. So it would be better if the global Frob distance or angle could be improved...


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#11 Springheel

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 01:29 PM

The main problem is that our default chest prefabs were set up so that the chest itself also reacts to frobbing, rather than just the lid.  Because the chest body is detected by the frob, it gets in the way if the player is pointing more at it than at the objects inside (which is easy to do).  It's much better to have only the lid react to frob, so the frob trace ignores the chest entirely.  Once the lid is open, the chest body can't interfere.  I modified the majority of the chest prefabs to work this way from 2.06 on (or was it 2.05...?) but that won't help any of the missions that used the old versions.



#12 Judith

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 01:29 PM

Actually, frob can be improved a lot, both in terms of visibility and reach, and tweaked per material and lighting conditions. Some time ago I wrote my own version of frob shader, and it works pretty good.



#13 Obsttorte

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 02:05 PM

 

What? Lean Forward was the most useful lean in the game. I used that more than lean left or right, in fact I don't remember the last time I used lean left or right, but I use forward constantly.

+1 here :)


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#14 Destined

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Posted 26 April 2018 - 05:11 PM

 

What? Lean Forward was the most useful lean in the game. I used that more than lean left or right, in fact I don't remember the last time I used lean left or right, but I use forward constantly.

Me too. If I remember correctly, in Thief 1 and 2 leaning forward against a corner did let you slide around it a bit, so I used leaning forward more often than leaning sideways.



#15 GilGiy

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 12:57 PM

 

When you draw (switch to) the blackjack, the sound is very loud--kinda like he's setting up a tent or something, it doesn't feel very stealthy.

 

I haven't seen anyone really discussing this so it doesn't seem to be a big deal...however, I went ahead and messed around with some materials at home to see what I could come up with.

I spent about 15 minutes and came up with this sound using two leather softball gloves:

 

It definitely needs more work spent on it (my version) if it's going to sound good (right now it kinda sounds goofy) (I accidentally recorded it in stereo which makes the un-sheath sound come out of the left speaker)--but I think it has more of a leathery sound to it than the original.

 

Any thoughts? Am I wasting my time?


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#16 AluminumHaste

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 01:29 PM

It does need to be revisited, good attempt, keep at it.


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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

#17 GilGiy

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Posted 27 April 2018 - 10:49 PM

So I've worked on this a while, playing around with different "styles"

I think I am settling on this sound:

 

 

I feel like I may have contaminated my ears listening to the same sound over and over so I've lost a sense of what's good and what isn't...


Edited by GilGiy, 27 April 2018 - 10:50 PM.

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#18 Anderson

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 03:05 AM

The last one is decent. Never understood why TDM has a loud sound for taking a blackjack.

 

The original Thief trilogy had a very silent blackjack upon drawing and holstering it. 


Edited by Anderson, 28 April 2018 - 03:06 AM.

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 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#19 Bikerdude

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 06:44 AM

The "putting away" sound is quite good, bu the "pulling_out" sound dosent sound right, its like a zip or something being rubbed past a piece of plastic/pvc or some other contemporary type of clothing.



#20 Springheel

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 08:39 AM

What version of the game are you running that mission with?  I see a decal there that looks like the transparency is broken, which shouldn't be happening.


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#21 GilGiy

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 09:00 AM

What version of the game are you running that mission with?  I see a decal there that looks like the transparency is broken, which shouldn't be happening.

 

I am running 2.05 on Linux

 

The "putting away" sound is quite good, bu the "pulling_out" sound dosent sound right, its like a zip or something being rubbed past a piece of plastic/pvc or some other contemporary type of clothing.

 

Ya I agree, it lacks the depth that leather should have and sounds too much like synthetic cloth or something...

I'll keep working on it and see what I can do...


Edited by GilGiy, 28 April 2018 - 09:09 AM.


#22 New Horizon

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 11:26 AM

Had you tried just lowering the volume in the sound shader to see if that helped?



#23 chakkman

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 12:47 PM

Not to blow the thread but... i really wished the blackjack would get an overwork. The way it is now, it is a hit and miss for me. I maybe have a success quote with the blackjack of 30%, max. And that is after watching the blackjack tutorials, which have been posted here once, and after years of playing this mod. Here are some issues i have with it:

 

The blackjack distance is too narrow. You have to stand too close to the guards to be able to hit them. Next thing, the aiming is really weird. I know the point was to give a realistic swing, but, when you have to aim for the lower back of a guard, to knock him, there's surely something wrong with the gameplay mechanic in that regard. You also have to avoid to even to walk on most surfaces, let alone run, to prevent the guards from turning around, or being so alert that the blackjack fails. Why is the alert state even relevant for a knockout? Makes no sense frankly.

 

In the original Thiefs, the distance for a successful knockout could be much further, guards didn't even get alerted so that you couldn't knock them out when you ran on to them with the blackjack, and the aiming wasn't very relevant either. I can understand why The Dark Mod wants to improve on a couple of things in that regard, and, maybe the blackjacking in the original Thiefs was a bit too easy, but... as i mentioned, even with tutorials and training, i maybe have a success rate of 30% if not lower, which is a bit frustrating. And it surely will be a hell of a lot more frustrating for new players. I'd really rework the blackjacking. 


Edited by chakkman, 28 April 2018 - 12:48 PM.


#24 GilGiy

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 01:17 PM

My humble opinion:

I find the blackjack fairly consistent and easy to use. At first I did try to aim high (by looking up) but realized that the thief is raising his arm and swinging down, there's no need to look at the sky...

 

In real life, blackjacking is not half as easy as in TDM (I do not speak from experience).

 

The only thing I could see being reasonable to change is what you said about alert guards. If a guard sees you, I don't think you should be able to knock him out, that would completely remove all necessity for a sword anyways. But if he's peering into the shadows and I sneak up behind him I think that's reasonable.

 

You can use the "lean forward" key to lean forward and knock out a guard. When a few guards are walking in a row, you can start in the back and work your way up provided you don't have to sprint.

 

As for guards getting alerted when you blackjack their buddy--When you take a 200 pound soldier, give him a sword or sledge hammer, and plate him with pieces of iron and chainmail; it only makes sense that when he hits the cobblestones that his friends 15 feet away should be able to hear him--even if they are drunk.

 

I would be afraid that if it were any easier, it would get even more difficult to build challenging maps.

 

...Just my thoughts...


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#25 AluminumHaste

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Posted 28 April 2018 - 01:50 PM

When a few guards are walking in a row, you can start in the back and work your way up provided you don't have to sprint.
 

 

I'm pretty sure that's almost impossible to do now:

 


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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 




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