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Please make a stable universal version 2.12


Gadavre

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dear developers. I've been following this project for a long time. And I noticed that adding new features to the game breaks things that used to work well in the game.

My suggestion: Stop adding new graphical features to the game, stop adding new variables and settings. There is a lot of garbage in the game and the developers know about it. Lots of variables and settings that don't work. For example, version 2.11a has a bug with cheat codes.

Please make a stable version 2.12, which will fix only bugs and remove garbage in the game code

Adding new features to resume in version 2.13. Not all players need modern features. Many players only need stability and high performance. Allow these players to play on version 2.12

 

Edited by Gadavre
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Can you elaborate on the issue 2.11a has with cheat codes? Last time I tried cheats (typical ones like noclip and notarget) they were working fine.

Also can you elaborate on the "garbage"? I think some examples would be useful. If you're talking about the many warnings that appear in the console I agree it can look ugly, but most of the time they're benign and a consequence of the maps being old or having errors themselves.

There's a careful balance one must take in preserving the playability of old missions and keeping development of future capabilities of the game going. I've encountered missions that break on updates, but for the most part they're pretty rare and the mission creators either update them if they're still active or workarounds are found.

Anyway if you have some more examples of what you're talking about it might be useful.

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A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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1 hour ago, Xolvix said:

(typical ones like noclip and notarget) they were working fine.

the noclip command is not working properly. Enter the walk command to exit this mode and the player will not be able to walk with his back straight. The body position will change.

 

1 hour ago, Xolvix said:

Also can you elaborate on the "garbage"? I think some examples would be useful.

I've written a lot about garbage in the past. about variables that don't work. I also wrote about bugs. Other players also wrote about it. There is a trend-adding new features breaks the game. So I suggested that you take a break and fix all the bugs and variables that don't work. or they don't work correctly, without adding new features in the version 2.12

Edited by Gadavre
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7 minutes ago, Gadavre said:

Enter the walk command to exit this mode and the player will not be able to walk with his back straight.

The command to get out of noclip mode is the same as to get in, "noclip", and walking afterwards is fine. You just have to make sure you're not still embedded in geometry, which shouldn't be a surprise. Leaning can be a bit funny if you tried to lean while in noclip mode, but it's no big deal and you can always lean back the other way to go back to normal. I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up about it.

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1 hour ago, Gadavre said:

I've written a lot about garbage in the past. about variables that don't work. I also wrote about bugs. Other players also wrote about it. There is a trend-adding new features breaks the game. So I suggested that you take a break and fix all the bugs and variables that don't work. or they don't work correctly, without adding new features in the version 2.12

I disagree. I think 2.11 fixed lots of issues. You still don't tell us what the "bugs" are, so it's not clear what you mean. 2.12 will also fix bugs as well, just as the versions before that and it will also add new features.

3 hours ago, Gadavre said:

There is a lot of garbage in the game and the developers know about it.

This sounds a bit like a Nort-line.

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1 hour ago, datiswous said:

I disagree. I think 2.11 fixed lots of issues. You still don't tell us what the "bugs" are, so it's not clear what you mean. 2.12 will also fix bugs as well, just as the versions before that and it will also add new features.

You can ask our developers about bugs, settings that don't work, or code errors . For example. You can contact Mr. Stgatilov.

I can  test version 2.11a seriously, especially since I have a huge long-term experience in this, but what's the point in this? If new features are added to the TDM 2.12 and many new bugs appear, will I have to test the game again? and so endlessly?  )

sorry, but I don't have that much time.

Therefore, I suggest to take a break and focus on finding bugs, broken variables, settings. then  to release the game version 2.12. and then add new features for version 2.13. Players will decide for themselves which version of the game to use.

Edited by Gadavre
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Please give us more examples in this thread. You gave one (noclip) and it wasn't even correct!

Have a look at the release notes for each release. You'll see a lot of bugs are fixed in addition to new features. Sometimes these features are imperfect, sometimes there are regressions, but fixing bugs is a core part of the game's development. Here you can look at what's currently being worked on for 2.12: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/changelog_page.php?version_id=108

 

Edited by Xolvix
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A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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I was about to say, follow the tracker and you can see exactly what's being worked on, and often the entries come with comments talking about all the issues involved with it, so you know why this or that is being done and not that or this. Then you can even give comments to the comments here, and you're on your way.

The point is, it's important to follow the tracker because otherwise you don't really have any idea what's going on behind the scenes. It happens so often, something you think should be a really trivial thing is actually mindbendingly complicated because of how the game deals with that system, and other things you think could never be done, once you actually look into it, turn out to be really easy, or something you think you see is really a kind of illusion once you dig into it. You just never really know until you get into the details of it.

But if you do get into the details, once you starting understanding your way around the code, suddenly your comments can be really helpful.

Oh, sorry, I didn't even mention the main point of following the tracker. That's where you can see if the issue you're worried about has already been tracked and its status, or you can track a new issue if you don't see it already there, and then follow its status from there.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I'm sure they will create a stable 2.12 version, when its done! But the official game release is at version 2.11!

The 2.12 is still in heavy development and so, will have bugs and most probably break very easily, it shouldn't be used for real play, only to help TDM code team, to test, find bugs and regressions.

This dev version is accessible to the general public, only by courtesy of the TDM team, so we can experience and see how the game engine is developed, bugs and all, don't make them regret it, if more people start complaining, instead of helping, they will more than likely closed it behind doors, like they did before and do the public testing, only way later when is more stable. 

But that also makes it longer to release, because they will have less people testing, will have to do most of the testing themselves and because, afaik 1 or 2 people, are working on the engine at the moment, it will take way more time to develop and then test to the final release. And it will very probably come with more bugs, than if they did early public testing like they do now. 

Unlike paid comercial developers, TDM team doesn't have a dedicated paid bug testing team, we the players are the tester, is the lest we can do for be giving this fantastic free game.

And so IMO complaining the development branch is not stable, doesn't help, they know that, if you want a more stable version and not experience bugs, then use only the oficial 2.11 release, wait for the final oficial 2.12 release, again, when its done.

Edited by HMart
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10 hours ago, Gadavre said:

I can  test version 2.11a seriously, especially since I have a huge long-term experience in this, but what's the point in this? If new features are added to the TDM 2.12 and many new bugs appear, will I have to test the game again? and so endlessly?  )

sorry, but I don't have that much time.

I can reply with the very same text: why fixing tiny issues of developer/cheat commands in any version if they get broken anyway a year later?
We usually support and fix some commands/cvars that mappers use regularly when working on missions, but that's it.

I don't have that much time fixing all the minor stuff.
It does not pay off fixing some noclip issue that you can a) not get into, b) fix with other console command.

When game developers follow the idea "all console commands must work flawlessly", they usually close the console, so that players cannot get into it 😁

 

And yes, that's how testing works: the software is tested constantly, again and again, and the very same bugs are discovered again and again.


There was definitely a case when we aimed for stability release (like 2.07), but I don't feel 2.11 is anything close to that.

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Oh god he's back.

Modern Darkmod is incredibly stable. The only time it breaks for me is because I'm on the bleeding edge compiling my own binaries with every single SVN update, and even then, it's usually flawless.
Old TDM used to crash and have issues.
 

 

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The major focus for the last few TDM releases has been performance improvements. This is motivated by the fact that :

1). New TDM authors often give up when they find out their map performs poorly and the need to do complex optimization work, rebuild part of the map, or scale back on the detail in their map ( or all 3 ). Making the engine more forgiving for performance issues means that we will have less attrition and more participants.

2) Since TDM is free, we attract a certain amount of players on low cost or legacy hardware. Giving these players a better experience means that some might spread positive feedback to the gaming community and thus increase our player community ( which also means more potential mission authors )

We try to fix bugs along with these improvements but sometimes things slip through testing or are very challenging to fix. It helps if more players report these issues by testing our Dev Releases and Beta builds long before the official release. 2.07 was a special case where we clearly knew 2.06 was a little rough due to cutting edge new features and changes so we mostly just tried to make it a “2.06 fixed” release but even 2.07 added a few new things.

By the way, if you leave noclip and your view is tilted you can simply lean left or right using the lean keys and the view will be straight again. 

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On 6/8/2023 at 8:18 AM, Gadavre said:

Please make a stable version 2.12, which will fix only bugs and remove garbage in the game code

Quiet the contrary, for 2.12 please risk, fail, fall, fix, raise, learn, rinse, repeat, win. Have fun, thrill us.

Previous versions will always be there.

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