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Things that could be improved


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I´m sure for this problems there are no solutions right now: :rolleyes:

 

- Ambiance/Music disappears after reloading (in some cases not really, but barely hearable, doesn´t happen on every reload it seems, but most of the time in my case)

- The Sound Sliders are not working correct (Ambient Slider most of the time isn´t working at all)

- AI´s blocking each other (most of the time before half opened doors and sometimes even opening the door by the players hand can´t solve this)

- Footfalls by AI´s disappearing after they spotted and followed the player

- wrong and too loud Footfalls on some grounds

- no Joystick-support (I know, we had this before but I want to make a list here ;) )

- Player gets stuck in very narrow places

 

Hm, I think that´s all. The most 'annoying' ones are for sure the Ambiance-, Blocking-, and Footfall-Bugs. But somehow I can imagine that these things won´t be fixed in the next update.

 

BTW, I just ran the updater yesterday and I got like 56 new files (about 800 MB) for download but never read an announcement for an new update. Is this kind of an internal update? Or are we supposed to just run the updater from time to time because there is always something updated/changed that is not sooo important for an announcement? Then again I think this is the 1.02 version listed in the Bugtracker, don´t remember where I saw it...

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There is no safe way to knock someone out in real life. Not with a bump on the head, not with choking. Even using a poison dart dipped in some anaesthetic would not be safe, because anaesthetics need

I find the skill in blackjacking should lie in maneuvering yourself into a position where you can knockout an AI and hide the body without getting detected by other AIs. Once you’re in that position,

Many things in TDM seem minor until you try to make them happen. Most times you sink into quicksand.

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Personally, I couldn't begin to imagine playing the darkmod with a joystick controller :wacko:

Maybe your not as unco' as i am :)

 

I may be wrong, in which case correct me please, but isn't the level of alertness brought on by when the frequency of the sound emitted by certain materials you walk on? In that case, can't the fan mod makers decide that as well?

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Suggestions and questions (some that may have popped up around the forums before...)

 

I agree with the addition of extra critters, but could they also be made to impact game play, not just ambiance? In other words, if I am crawling in the darkness past a guard and step on a mouse that squeaks, would the guard react? Mind you, it would be irritating if the guard always automatically assumes its a thief (I always love when there are four guards in a room and if your heel clicks they all assume its you, not one of them!), but perhaps he would at least take a quick look around for the mouse and could therefore spot you. Also, if you crept near a tree and a crow shot off with a loud call, would the nearby pagan investigate?

 

I can't recall at the moment, but does picking a lock make a sound that can attract a guard? I have always played as though a guard can hear the scraping of the lock, but if I'm correct, it's more a cue for the player. I think if a guard is quite close and aware he should hear if someone is picking the lock behind him.

 

Agree with door open/close sounds attracting guards as well. Perhaps, like floor tiles, different doors create different levels of sound. A common door would creak a little, but a door that is used a lot doesn't really rust. An old garden gate screech would draw looks from any adjacent homes.

 

Anyone else here ever wish you could open a door to varying degrees? I know the instant pop-open is probably the smoothest way to go, but sometimes I wish I could slowly move a door in the same way I would move a body, sliding it just a little for a peek.

 

Nasty possible detail; doors with transparent windows where you can be seen through them, or with keyholes where a carried light might be seen by a guard on the other side. :D

 

Ah, yes, and broken glass. Not only would it be interesting if you could knock over a glass pitcher and have it break (or the only way in is to break a pane of glass in a window), but the glass shards then fall to the floor, causing that lovely "crack-crunch" sound if you walk over it.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

---edit!---

 

Thought of another one. Anyone remember smashing a crate in Thief and having the broken boards float on the water? A nice little effect that added realism, but couldn't a guard see that as well? Not that it would be a big draw, but if you were in the warehouse district as a guard and saw several crates worth of lumber floating along, you might get a little curious.

 

Also, who's to say that there might be a place where you will have to break open crates in your way, or to get at some treasure inside the crate?

Edited by Maethius
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Anyone else here ever wish you could open a door to varying degrees? I know the instant pop-open is probably the smoothest way to go, but sometimes I wish I could slowly move a door in the same way I would move a body, sliding it just a little for a peek.

This has been discussed before and I think pretty much everyone likes this idea though there's other more important things to get out the way first. I think it was Splinter Cell that first had this (correct me if I'm wrong), and it definitely would be an improvement over Thief's "hit my face with the door again" action.

 

Nasty possible detail; doors with transparent windows where you can be seen through them, or with keyholes where a carried light might be seen by a guard on the other side. :D

Similar to Guards noticing the player shadow, this kind of thing would be ultra realistic, but would probably make the game unbearably difficult where it stops being fun. Same thing with squeaks, creaks, screeches etc. Funny thing about lock-picking, I always pause when a guard is nearby even if it doesn't make a difference, so if you really like this you can pretend like I do. laugh.gif

 

That gave me an idea though, why can't the player character use keyholes to peak into a room and see if there's a guard in there before barging in? Old keys (and therefore keyholes) were huge compared to modern keys, so you'd get a pretty good look through them. Not sure quite how it would be achieved since you'd need to get right up close to the keyhole to see anything useful. I could imagine a 'close-up' animation like the lock-picking in TDS working quite well with this (heresy, I know biggrin.gif).

 

What do other people think of this?

 

 

 

 

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Keyhole peeking is probably technicaly possible but would need some work.

 

Partly opening doors is available now - just frob again to stop the door. So, frob the door to start it opening and frob again to stope when it has opened as much as you want. (I think this can be disabled on individual doors by mappers but is probably rare for them to do so.)

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I think these are features which would be a hell of an effort to implement in game, for relatively little gameplay gain.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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That gave me an idea though, why can't the player character use keyholes to peak into a room and see if there's a guard in there before barging in? Old keys (and therefore keyholes) were huge compared to modern keys, so you'd get a pretty good look through them. Not sure quite how it would be achieved since you'd need to get right up close to the keyhole to see anything useful. I could imagine a 'close-up' animation like the lock-picking in TDS working quite well with this (heresy, I know biggrin.gif).

 

 

Thanks for reminding me! First, I love the idea of being able to peek (have a alpha hole in the texture, use "Lean forward" to see through it... better have the height right!).

 

What you reminded me of was a feature in T2... maybe it was even in T1, it's been so long I can't recall. Remember that you could listen at doors by leaning sideways into them? In the level "Eavesdropping" in T2 you actually had to use the feature to achieve the objective of hearing the plan between Karras and Truart. I have found myself leaning against doors all the time in TDM as though the feature were there.

 

(and, yeah, I do pretend that guards can hear my lockpicks!)

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I have found myself leaning against doors all the time in TDM as though the feature were there.

 

It is. :huh:

 

I think if a guard is quite close and aware he should hear if someone is picking the lock behind him.

 

Currently AI don't hear lockpicking sounds. We were talking at one point about making AI able to hear the "failed" sound (if quite nearby), to add extra incentive and tension to lockpicking when AI are around. It wouldn't be enough to make them turn around on it's own, but enough for a comment (like hearing a single footstep). How would people feel about that?

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I think it would be better to do a keyhole peek like a scouting orb ... The keyhole could specially highlight separately from the door (I made a safe that works like that so you can unlock the lock & open the door), and when you frob it, it fades the screen to a special camera on the other side of the door, with a "keyhole" silhouette around the edges, until you frob again. Same principle for the door-view and other things. I know some games that use a keyhole peek to good effect; Anchorhead used it. Anyway, it's a cool idea that wouldn't be crazy hard to do and could lead to some cool gameplay scenes.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I think these are features which would be a hell of an effort to implement in game, for relatively little gameplay gain

 

I agree with most of that...

 

But I do hope that Thief 4 has the door opening machanics where you can control the swing... but only if it matters and the doors are noticed by the guards, else what does it matter? Other than to the extent that you do as Fidcal says and open the door, stop it, move to obstruct it and then close it up to the obstruction you cause... I do do that from time to time, just for fun.

 

But, here in TDM, I think this door swinging control is all asking too much, and pretty much moot because it doesn't bother the guards if a door is wide open or not. Leave it for the next engine.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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I think it would be better to do a keyhole peek like a scouting orb ... The keyhole could specially highlight separately from the door (I made a safe that works like that so you can unlock the lock & open the door), and when you frob it, it fades the screen to a special camera on the other side of the door, with a "keyhole" silhouette around the edges, until you frob again. Same principle for the door-view and other things. I know some games that use a keyhole peek to good effect; Anchorhead used it. Anyway, it's a cool idea that wouldn't be crazy hard to do and could lead to some cool gameplay scenes.

 

I think I would be down with the keyhole idea only if it is implemented this way, because of visportaling. An actual keyhole would render closing a door almost useless from a performance perspective.

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Yep, I imagined the keyhole thing the same way demagogue suggested - a fade to black and keyhole shaped mask (the scouting orb comparison is a good one). If this were done you'd probably have something like the 'alt' key be required before right-clicking the door so that there's little chance of setting this off by mistake.

 

I'd also imagine that it would be door-specific since not all doors have keyholes. I don't know, is this something that is better left to mappers who want to rig a special camera system up (like demagogue's safe), or would that inconsistency just lead to confusion?

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and pretty much moot because it doesn't bother the guards if a door is wide open or not

 

Eventually they will, we just haven't gotten that far yet.

 

I'd also imagine that it would be door-specific since not all doors have keyholes. I don't know, is this something that is better left to mappers who want to rig a special camera system up (like demagogue's safe), or would that inconsistency just lead to confusion?

 

We talked about this feature within the first year or two of development as well. I forget exactly how the conversation went, but in general we wanted to avoid any "sucking in" type actions like TDS had. And since you can already open doors a tiny sliver to look through them, it seems a bit redundant.

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I forget exactly how the conversation went, but in general we wanted to avoid any "sucking in" type actions like TDS had. And since you can already open doors a tiny sliver to look through them, it seems a bit redundant.

I agree the 'sucking in' action makes me a little nervous, anything that grabs control away from the player doesn't feel quite right in Thief. Still, I was curious whether the effect would feel natural or if it would be jarring, so created a

. I think it looks okay in this example but still not sure how this would come across in game (specifically if you had to pull the camera towards the door/keyhole).

 

On the issue of it being redundant, I don't completely agree. Opening a door even just a little bit brings with it the risk of being detected if you're not in shadow, so this would be a safe way to check for guards (akin to leaning against the door). It would be a definite improvement over Thief IMO, but whether it is worth the effort is another matter.

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I see this as similar to the spyglass and not a 'sucking in' feature at all. The player viewpoint is set roughly at top front of the player box.

 

'Keyhole' code might detect:

 

1. if the player box is in contact with a door entity and

2. if the door entity is in the field of view plus or minus N degrees (probably very narrow to simulate the restricted view of a keyhole.)

 

If so:

 

A, open the visportal (if any,)

B, move the player viewpoint forward N units,

C, freeze or restrict viewpoint turning, and

D overlay a keyhole gui.

 

In this mode the player viewpoint is on the other side of the door. Gameplay continues in real time just as with the spyglass. In this mode the code keeps testing 1 above and if not true then reverse A, B, C, and D above.

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Ah, yes, and broken glass. Not only would it be interesting if you could knock over a glass pitcher and have it break (or the only way in is to break a pane of glass in a window), but the glass shards then fall to the floor, causing that lovely "crack-crunch" sound if you walk over it.

 

I second that. Except for the crack crunch, that might be hard to implement?

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1. if the player box is in contact with a door entity and

2. if the door entity is in the field of view plus or minus N degrees (probably very narrow to simulate the restricted view of a keyhole.)

If this is possible then great, but you wouldn't want it to automatically activate the keyhole view. Even though it isn't necessary, I usually crouch right next to the keyhole when lock-picking (just for my own immersion) so you wouldn't want the keyhole view to be initiated in this case. That's why you would probably be better off using your suggestions as well as checking that the 'alt' and lean forward key are pressed down at the same time.

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Possibly. It would need testing to see what works. You might find you simply need to step back or sideways or possibly even turn to break the image so no different to really crouching and looking through a keyhole. If it proved annoying though then yes a key to activate. I was thinking of the spyglass control since it is a similar feel to it and you can't use both at the same time. I hope you realize this is all very unlikely anyway given the higher priorities and the limited manpower. But it's fun to consider what might be possible.

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Of course, I don't mean to sound like this is a 'must have' feature. I think it would add to the game experience sure, but like you say there are higher priorities and that's fine by me.

 

Since this is a thread for improving things that are already in TDM, I've noticed that once guards are alerted they hold out their arms in a weird pose and stay this way for the rest of the game. It looks a little odd, like they're half sleepwalking or something. I don't know how difficult animation poses are to set up (can you tell?) but sometimes the little things have a big impact, in this case a negative impact on the believability of guards as real people (for me anyway).

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Since this is a thread for improving things that are already in TDM, I've noticed that once guards are alerted they hold out their arms in a weird pose and stay this way for the rest of the game.

 

Can you post a screenshot? There shouldn't be any obvious difference, other than them having their weapon out.

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Lockpicks: To be honest as i was revisiting T2 trying out the multiplayer mod for it ( that is great btw).

I realized how it was better for me that one lockpick was whitish and the other brownish. I often find myself in TDM that i do not judge the pick by the looks but rather by reading its label, or just trying randomly, while in thief 2 i could atleast have a guess..'oh that looks like it goes by the white one'.

 

Its really a minor thing but i think it adds.

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Lockpicks: I realized how it was better for me that one lockpick was whitish and the other brownish. I often find myself in TDM that i do not judge the pick by the looks but rather by reading its label, or just trying randomly, while in thief 2 i could atleast have a guess..'oh that looks like it goes by the white one'.

 

That's actually a great suggestion, I wouldn't have any issue with that happening. Simple to swap materials too :)

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I would be absolutely outraged and infuriated by such a dumbing-down of the game! :angry:

 

What's next? Rainbow-maned unicorn ponies!??

 

(am I serious? no I'm not. but I figure there's gotta be some disagreement always with everyanything on the internet)

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Can you post a screenshot? There shouldn't be any obvious difference, other than them having their weapon out.

Wish I could, I tried replicating this but it obviously doesn't happen with all guards. I'll keep an eye out for it and get a screenshot if I see it again.

 

I realized how it was better for me that one lockpick was whitish and the other brownish.

I don't really see this as a problem in TDM, though it could be because of how I use lock-picking. I don't use the scroll wheel but instead have mapped the Z key to switch between picks. If my first attempt fails, I just hit Z to try the next one so I don't have to keep track of whether the one that failed was the triangle or square lock-pick.

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