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Things that could be improved


Berny

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What i mean is, that the dog would spin on a single axis to turn around, which would look a bit dodgy. Its just the look of the turning motion im referring to. The same problem exists for guards, which doesn't look quite as bad because so much of the mass of the human body lies near our vertical axis. Since a dog has its body parts much farther away from its center of gravity, turning on a axis looks weird.

 

So, if adding a dog to simply add to the ambiance of a level (rather than for combat, with its own combat animations and code), I wonder, would it actually help? Or would it hurt some peoples immersion and/or are there better things to focus on? I think it would be worth it for the most part, but i'm kinda of raising these questions to the guy who has to spend a bunch of time modeling and texturing it for his/her sake.

 

Example of cat in Thief 3:

http://www.xfire.com/video/2d2d81/

 

Here the cat is still walking forward a tad as its turning, but it would look even worse if standing still. If given desired turn rate, i could animate a turn so the feet wouldn't slide so much.

 

It would have to be modeled first. I could rig it.

 

Mappers could also make their paths so the dog doesn't make any sharp turns if they were so inclined.

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I've felt like I would like to see dogs added as well, but unfortunately free-roaming dogs open up a whole can of gameplay issues. How do you simulate a dog's ability to see in low light? How would a dog search for the player, given that he should be able to track him by scent? How do you handle pathfinding for dogs (it would look quite artificial to have dogs following the same path all the time)? How does the player get away from a dog that will certainly be able to run much faster than he can? There's a lot of things that would have to be considered.

 

One somewhat easier scenario I thought of was having dogs act as a "stationary alert system". Have the dog on a leash, tied to a post or something. The player has to sneak by without alerting the dog; if he fails, the dog starts barking and draws all kinds of guards to the area (though the dog can't attack or chase the player himself due to the leash). That would require only a limited number of animations--a couple idles, a suspicious alert, and an all out barking, while straining at the leash. I guess an attack would be needed too in case the player decided to move in and attack. But it removes a lot of the tricky issues of dogs that can go wherever they want.

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Yeah, an all out sniffing/attacking/barking dog could get complex. For the attack animation that aimed for the head/chest area, would another be needed for a crouched player? For the chained dog idea, i wonder how the rope/chain could be animated to look decent. Call of Duty 4 and World at War both have attacking dogs for reference btw and some other games too, but i can't think of the names. Theres a console game that came out a year or 2 ago that had a dog as a side kick and it was animated beautifully, but with a lot of code help, i can't remember the name.

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That's why Thief sidestepped the issue neatly with burricks (although of course only people like Ramirez were crazy enough to keep them as housepets). We have certain expectations about dogs, and we don't have the same about fantasy lizards that breath poison gas.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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One somewhat easier scenario I thought of was having dogs act as a "stationary alert system". Have the dog on a leash, tied to a post or something. The player has to sneak by without alerting the dog; if he fails, the dog starts barking and draws all kinds of guards to the area (though the dog can't attack or chase the player himself due to the leash). That would require only a limited number of animations--a couple idles, a suspicious alert, and an all out barking, while straining at the leash. I guess an attack would be needed too in case the player decided to move in and attack. But it removes a lot of the tricky issues of dogs that can go wherever they want.

 

That's actually a great idea. In terms of gameplay it's just like the camera, (is that implemented, btw?) but even a slum can have dogs.

 

Edit: Not really like the camera, as it can't fall asleep :)

Edited by Diego
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Theres a console game that came out a year or 2 ago that had a dog as a side kick and it was animated beautifully, but with a lot of code help, i can't remember the name.

 

is that the dog in fallout 3, i blew it up in minefield.

Edited by stumpy
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Fable 2?

 

Dogs with full roam could be added sparingly but there would definitely need to be foils (like a no-scent potion or food to *befriend them) to balance the gameplay...

 

Seems like quite the project (lots of work) in comparison to Springheel's more restrained version though...

 

*cant believe that's a real word...

Edited by nbohr1more

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That's actually a great idea. In terms of gameplay it's just like the camera, (is that implemented, btw?) but even a slum can have dogs.

 

Yes, it basically works like those head cameras in T2, but it's much more down-to-earth and versatile (and can defend itself if necessary). It wouldn't really require any extra coding either (although it would be a nice touch if you could toss a piece of meat at the dog to distract it for X seconds).

 

For the chained dog idea, i wonder how the rope/chain could be animated to look decent.

 

I originally thought of a ragdoll chain but I think that would probably cause too many problems when colliding with the dog mesh, and would look bad most of the time. The best way to do it is probably including the chain as part of the model and animate both together. That's not as versatile (since the length would be fixed) but it's the only realistic way to do it, IMO. It's possible that could cause some bounding box issues, however--I'm still unsure about how the code handles that.

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I originally thought of a ragdoll chain but I think that would probably cause too many problems when colliding with the dog mesh, and would look bad most of the time. The best way to do it is probably including the chain as part of the model and animate both together. That's not as versatile (since the length would be fixed) but it's the only realistic way to do it, IMO. It's possible that could cause some bounding box issues, however--I'm still unsure about how the code handles that.

 

Could the chain be made as a ragdoll but without any mass or physics, so that was entirely a slave to the position of the dog? Then monsterclip could be used to restrict the motion of the dog to within an area defined by the chain.

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I don't know a lot about ragdolls, but I would think there would be problems when the chain clips into the dog or anything else. It would probably be easy enough to test by binding a rope to an AI who is walking around.

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On second thoughts it would look crap anyway; non-physical chains work for stringing wires between pylons because they never touch the ground. As soon as the dog went too close to the other end of its chain it would look unrealistic if the chain didn't rest on the ground in a physically-correct manner.

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If the chain is a problem, put the dog into a cage. (Maybe we should start with getting a dog model, animating it, getting sounds and then coding the behaviour instead of worrying about details like a chain? :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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A dog on a chain can be put just about anywhere, but it would be pretty hard to justify having a big cage with dogs in it in most circumstances.

 

Maybe we should start with getting a dog model, animating it, getting sounds and then coding the behaviour instead of worrying about details like a chain?

 

This discussion is about whether it's worth the (significant) effort to model, texture, rig and animate (let alone code) a dog. We still have AI that could go in game now if the code were there to support them, so making new creatures that also need code support seems counter-intuitive, at best. If there's actually a way they could be used without code support, then I *might* even be willing to model one.

 

Of course, if there's anyone who wants to take the work of making a dog right now, regardless of how it can eventually be used, they should certainly feel free.

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Not trying to cross-post, but it was suggested that I should make a suggestion here :)

 

We were talking over on the Heart of Lone Salvation topic about a way to make keys more functional in the game, and I mentioned that in Oblivion there is a mod that gives you a keychain:

 

http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=oblivionmods.detail&id=681

 

It's a really handy piece of kit that keeps all of your keys together. You can open a submenu with all of your keys available individually (sort of like flicking through your bunch of keys), but other than that you can just use the keychain to unlock doors if you have the correct key by automatically selecting the right key and opening the door.

 

I wondered if that would be possible to put into TDM, to save players from having to flick through large numbers fo keys that clog the inventory.

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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I was thinking the same thing. I've seen this done in Thief FMs, where a keychain would automatically open any door if the appropriate key is on the chain, so I'm sure this could be done by a FM maker but it would be nice to have a consistent approach as part of the mod.

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I wonder if you can set the key group as a hotkey? It should be feasible, since you can set individual inventory objects.

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I'd be interested as long as there's an easy way of checking which keys you have (unlike Ultima games, damn you and your keyrings!)

 

Also at the moment you can use different binds for scrolling inventory and keys, which helps a bit but... I always forget :(

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I've set up 'k' to cycle through the keys. Helps, but when there are dozens of keys it still gets boring; I run the simple algorithm everytime I find a locked door: press k, press enter, repeat until door is opened (sounds like "vrr ploc vrr ploc vrr ploc vrr ploc vrr Sclank")

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I'd be interested as long as there's an easy way of checking which keys you have (unlike Ultima games, damn you and your keyrings!)

 

Good point, it would suck if you picked a key off a guards belt only for it to disappear into a keychain with no way of knowing which door you then had access to. A solution could be something like the objectives screen maybe, like press 'k' and a scroll appears with a list of the keys you have.

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The best way to do it is probably including the chain as part of the model and animate both together.

 

Probably the best way.

 

Make the pivot of the model at the end of the chain (opposite to the dog) so, for example, one animation of 'barking with the chain stretched' (wich is how a dog would bark) you can just rotate the whole model to account for all directions.

 

But it has to be a very short chain! or else the player might be able to position himself between the dog and his pivot, wich would result in unrealism or require extra coding (the kind of coding you'd need to make free dogs, so..)

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I think all this needs in the code is to enable the mapper to add a property to the door in-game eg, used_by_keyring keyring1 or similar.

 

Whenever a key is found it would call that code so that particular door can now be unlocked by keyring1.

 

The original key would still work and be present in the inventory so you can see if it has a useful name.

 

A new key is defined named keyring1 with a keyring inventory icon; ideally a model too but not essential if the keyring starts in the inventory.

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I've an idea for the keychain.. You can chose the keychain for opening a door (it lasts a few seconds - garrXX has to try a few keys) or you can choose a key directly, so it opens as fast as usual. Yes I know it yould be another object in the pocket, but if you have 10 keys, sometimes you don't want to try all of them, and sometimes you could take one directly to open a door

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I think you have the right idea, and Fidcal, it sounds like you have the knowhow to make it work. To take the idea a step further though, I was thinking that part of the usefulness of a keychain was to reduce inventory clutter by taking all keys out of the menu and leaving instead just a keychain to represent all of your keys.

 

Let me describe. You have a keychain in your inventory and the start of the game but no keys. You pick up the key to the cellar door. Perhaps a message comes up saying "cellar door key added" or somesuch, and then it is automatically added to the keychain. So at this point your inventory still shows the keychain (but perhaps has a little "1" in the corner to show that there is one key on the keychain) but the cellar door key is not on display in the menu - it's on the chain. When you come to the cellar door, you can just use the keychain itself to open the door - TDM recognises that the cellar key is on the chain and opens the door.

 

You could then have a keybind (on the keyboard, not as in a key to a lock - let's say "K") to detach all keys from the chain and display them individually on the menu for those times when you want to scroll through and see what you've got. So you press "K" and you can now scroll through the menu and see the cellar door key. You can then use the cellar door key directly to open the cellar if you so wish.

 

Another quick press of the "K" button, all of your carefully collected keys are put back on the keychain. All that is displayed in the inventory is the keychain and your inventory looks nice and tidy again smile.gif

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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