Things that could be improved

[ungoliant]

I'd prefer the footsteps stay the same relative to the player at this point, realism be damned. If you keep reducing the volume levels to virtual silence on materials like carpet, I'd just turn up my volume so that I can hear it relative to the environment anyway. No matter how low you make the footsteps volume, if I can't hear them, I'm just going to turn up the volume so I CAN hear them.

 

As far as footsteps relative to AI, I definitely have problems getting within blackjack/pickpocket range unless you choose a hiding spot where you are virtually a foot away when they pass by. This is assuming the usual default surface of wood or stone. If it was on carpet or moss I could breakdance behind the AI before swiping his purse. Maybe there needs to be a smaller range of footstep audibility to AI instead of the silence (carpet) to megaphone (tile). A thief is doing his damned best to stay quiet in any case, and likely has some kind of muted footwear.

 

At the very least, carpeting should sound louder when jumping on it. Its a friggin 1/4 inch carpet, not a tempurpedic mattress, eh?

[Serpentine]

Really, really, it's not worth debating the changes, they are very minimal and really keep in line with what we currently have, stop worrying about them - if you feel the change was bad once/if they are released, then feel free

[plasticman]

Just like to add my opinion about the dog topic from pages earlier.

 

I wouldn't like to see any kind of dog in TDM. Even the distant barking sound that's already in there distracted me. Cats would be fine (if done well) but dogs just don't fit in the universe. This is due to my personal taste without any reasoning behind it. I JUST DON'T LIKE DOGS. Thank you.

 

Apart from that there always occurs a problem when adding animals people know well from real life. The better you know the behavior and kind of the animal's movements the more you will notice the lack of it in game. I don't play many games these days but as far as I remember most animals were not at all convincing. Think of pigeons in DE:IW. They looked more like a battery driven toy. Someone already posted the cat from TDS. You can not get much farther from a real cat's behavior than this. Horses in Oblivion just are robotic.

 

As a conclusion it would be more feasable to add animals that are not so common to most poeople, rare exotic animals or fantastic creatures. If you don't know an animal you don't know what to expect from it (someone already said that: Burricks worked fine because of this). Just think of the possibilities. A sloth is easy to animate.

 

One more thing to suggest for the dog: do a dog bot instead. I lost track of the forum a little but it seems there is a lack of cool steam beasts atm, plus any attempt to animate it and supply an appropriate AI will likely result in something that is perceived by the player as something machine-like anyhow for the reasons stated.

 

I know nothing about animating but I think a natural fluent animation is harder to do than choppy robot-like movements. Found a video on tube with a

. Maybe something like this in a steam punk disguise...

 

[Fidcal]

OK, scratch the dogs.

 

Talking about pigeon animation, possibly the finest animation I've seen in a game, at least as far as the impression it had on me, was that of the pigeons in Shenmue 1 on the Dreamcast. One of the few games which affected me emotionally here and there. These birds flocked together on the ground, pecking away. If you approached slowly they spread away from you then circled around to get back to reform their group. If you ran at the group and got too close then they broke into flight and circled around and settled together further away. It was magic. It seemed to me perfect, sound as well, and I could not tell them apart from real pigeons. I was so entranced that whenever I was in that area (down by the docks where I had a job) I always used to scatter them several times.

[Springheel]

dogs just don't fit in the universe.

 

Saying you don't like dogs is one thing; saying they would be hard to animate is another, but saying they don't fit the universe is ridiculous.

 

In reality, most of the places the player breaks into would be guarded by more dogs than people.

[Diego]

dogs just don't fit in the universe.

 

That is a strange statement

[aidakeeley]

It is a strange statement; but so is "in reality"...

 

Because "in reality" most of the places the player breaks into would obviously be guarded by steambots.

Edited July 7, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Mortem Desino]

Oh no, poor Fido. We're going to have to put him down -- he just doesn't fit in this universe.

[aidakeeley]

Anyway universe is so yesterday.

[Diego]

I understand he meant it as "I just don't like dogs". I just thought it was funny

[Komag]

Yeah, it was good ol' hyperbole

[nbohr1more]

Burns: I suggest you leave immediately.

 

Homer: Or what? You’ll release the dogs, or the bees, or the dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you? Well, go ahead—do your worst!

 

 

Required

[plasticman]

No. I meant most dogs are just too monstrous so there is not enaugh space for them in a comparatevely small universe like the TDM one.

 

This is not true for Chihuahuas of course.

 

edit: replying to Diego, but I'm too slow.

Edited July 7, 2010 by plasticman

[nbohr1more]

must...

resist...

temptation...

to mention...

Baha Men...

song...

 

(Too much Pavlovian conditioning from reading Digg forums)

[demagogue]

Having dogs does add another style to the gameplay. They'll probably run faster than you (if they were free-roaming), jump you and just start mercilessly munching, and you'd have to crouch to hit them. And too many of them in a level might make it pretty frenetic and I could imagine someone thinking it doesn't fit in with their playing style when dealing with human AI. (You could say similar things about undead, spiders, and beasts too. Some people just don't like sneaking around them.) But a chained dog that barks when it sees you I think could fit in even with traditional human-AI focused FMs.

 

All that said, I personally think ambient and hostile animal AI really adds to an environment and would love to see guard dogs, feral dogs and cats, pigeons, crows, bats, horses, ducks, chickens, pigs...

[aidakeeley]

I like monkeys. Monkeys with capes. And with Silver Surfer styled stuntboards, please.

[Diego]

I like monkeys. Monkeys with capes.

Don't forget LASERS!

 

Ok, I'm done ruining this topic

[LEGION]

No, Diego! You ruined nothing!! IMO you made one of the best suggestions with the ring-system for the inventory. As I read about the key-discussion I had exactly the same idea! :thumbup:

It should be like you said, highlighting with the mouse-movement over the groups, then opening sub-menus. (Something like that had the game 'Undying' for both items and weapons, but without the sub-menus).

 

The group-key-bindings are no solution for people like me with gamepads due to space-reasons(space for keys, and it should be the aim to have less keys as possible you have to use). And the ring-system is so much more fun to use and this way you don´t have the selected item on the screen all the time. Really, I can´t say enough, how much an improvement this would be. It´s not only functional, it really is more fun to use. (for me at least) And it´s better to see more items than one as you 'scroll' through you stuff. All this in real-time, of course.

 

And yes, I too would really love to be able to drop keys as all the stuff you hold. And especially for older/existing missions. Because knowing that I can drop keys in actual, but not in older missions could be a reason for some people to ignore older missions at all. (maybe, but most likely possible I think) And I never dropped something in a location, I couldn´t get back to. As Springheel said, I always want to put things back where I found them in the first place.

 

About opening doors just slightly: Why didn´t anyone mentioned the console-cmd: 'tdm_door_control 1'. With this enabled you can control doors by holding the frob-key and moving the mouse. It´s not working properly with every door, but with most and I was hoping the team is working to perfect this but now I fear this option is abandoned because no one mentioned it?

 

As for dogs: I really would love some more Animals in TDM, especially non-hostile ones! Some friendly/passive AI´s (human and non-human) more would be very nice.

 

But I don´t quite know if I would like the 'return' of steam-beasts. At least they shouldn´t be as 'advanced' as the ones in this TDM-like games called Thief. I mean they should be small, less perfect, maybe not functioning properly simulating their early stage of invention and very rarely set in missions. Yes I know what you´re thinking, aidakeeley. I´m not better than the one that doesn´t like dogs becasue I obviously don´t like steam-powered robots but at least I never would say they doesn´t fit to the universe! But maybe they doesn´t fit at the 'actual' stage of the universe? Just kidding Steam-powered 'things' are ok to me if they aren´t so big/powerful...

 

Dammit, I´ve written so much that I forgot to raise my thumbs for some other suggestions...

 

But as for this Sound-arrow (formerly known as Moss-Arrow, btw, I really loved this joke about pepper-arrows, who was it? Diego, right? Why did you thought you ruined sth? ): I don´t get it. Don´t you have 5.1-sound-output? I never felt the urge for a sound-trap for guards because their footsteps are so loud, they are their own sound-traps themselves. That reminds me of the footfall-issue: Very most of the sounds sound very good and I´m happy with them. But relating to Fidcal´s Alert Test Range this are the ones to be improved: (They´re all fine about alerting the AI, but they all were too loud (according to realism and in this case it´s important because the player is confronted with this most of the time) for both, the player and the AI): Dirt, wood, water and the red brick-stone, sorry, forgot the name. Was one of or the last room.

 

Oh, and now I remember some fresh lemon man asking me about Joysticks and TDM. I meant with Joystick-support the axis´ for my GamePad-Sticks. This is so damn good to have a walking speed related to how strong you hold the stick. (adds more tension too because you´re never in secure creep-mode) Like on the PlayStation. Once you´re used to it you never wanna lose it again. And as you´re used to a GamePad you (at least me) never wanna go back to silly 'Keyboard-Style'. Ok, I won´t say you accidentally press Alt+F4, but with this lot of keys assigned you must sometims press the wrong ones, don´t lie to me!! I see there a real problem while playing in pitch black darkness as I do always whle playing TDM and this other series. That put´s me back to the idea of re-grouping the inventory on-screen instead via new keys you have to assign additionally. Sadly I seem to be the one and only using GamePad so I fear no one will care.

 

Hell, I shouldn´t be gone for so long and still I have a feeling that I forgot sth to mention. I hope that at least the important ones have read until this without forgetting what I talked about at the beginning (the Ring-system!!)

 

Ah, here is one thing that would be really cool: Please re-activate the Next/Prev-Weapon-keys!!

[jaxa]

Any news or views on the steambot front? I haven't seen the bot from the latest update in action yet, but what about the entire cast?

[stumpy]

problem with dogs is which breed of dog do you pick, most of todays dogs dont represent what type of dog would have been around in a simpler time. dogs original came from wolves and man would then pick out the more docile wolves as they are easier to train than the more feral wolves. You can actualy easily see the difference between feral cats and domesticated cats, feral cats wont play with the ball and string.

 

take the difference between rats in deus ex, and deus ex 2, in the original rats run away from you as soon as you appear and if you manage to jump on them it kills them instantly, rats in invisible war are as big as cats were in the original game, ignore you if you go near them, and if you walk over them which is easy to do they just squeak at you.

[aidakeeley]

Has this been mentioned yet? And am I recalling correctly to begin with? When I talk like this is it obvious that I'm referring to a certain other game that TDM evokes evocatively evocations?

 

I seem to remember that if you were "creeping"/moving-extra-slowly that you couldn't fall off whatever edge you might be near. I liked that (at least as a substitute for body-awareness).

[Komag]

You can't fall of edges in some games when walking carefully (I think Tomb Raider was like that), but in Thief and TDM you can

[LEGION]

Another good example for a great option(!). Really, I can´t have enough options, fill 2/3 pages with it, I won´t mind.

 

Ah, I forgot to say that I really like the 'looking through keyhole'-idea. It should be activated as you press 'Lean forward' for several seconds in crouch-mode in front of the keyhole. While leaning one should 'touch' the door. Would be really nice, could work with an overlay like the Spyglass....

[aidakeeley]

This is an interesting "bug" that might be refined into a bit of interesting gameplay if the obstacle can be made to work so that maybe...the guard does eventually become "alert" and all that follows from that... and/or the arrow does eventually break (with maybe a semi-random, or completely true to placement {tip vs shaft}, affect on the blockage).

 

Discovered by (AFAIK) Tudor, here (2nd spoiler).

 

"If you shoot an arrow into a door near where the hinges would be, the tip of the arrow will stick through and either the tip or the shaft of the arrow will block the turning of the door, and once the AI can't open a door..."

 

I really love the fact that it works, but not so much that it appears to be a cheat because of the AI (non)response.

 

...

 

Thanks, Komag. I wasn't sure it was part of that old game (that shall remain nameless -- the one that everyone should drop in favor of developing FMs for TDM).

 

It's would probably be pretty complicated to implement it in the engine as is, but, again, I would vote for it if it were something that could be done. It's one of those things that, to me would be along-side the excellent mantling improvement in TDM a frustration-reducer.

[Baddcog]

Any news or views on the steambot front? I haven't seen the bot from the latest update in action yet, but what about the entire cast?

 

 

Good luck getting any two people to agree on what they should look like, how they should function, etc...

 

Believe me I tried for months and offered several concepts of my own. (Wheels, animal faces...) There was always this or that reason why any and or all of them were not right for DM.