Things that could be improved

[LEGION]

It´s not there (it seems), so I´ll add it...

 

I don´t see a search-option to be sure, Tels.

 

Ok, found the search-function down there.

Edited July 21, 2010 by LEGION

[Baddcog]

It is definitely a ghosting failure, but so what? We definitely should not be making AI behave unrealistically just to support a gameplay style that's rather unrealistic to begin with.

 

 

Well, it's one thing if you're just trying to ghost, and another if ghosting is an objective. That's just something the author has to think about.

If I'm going to make ghosting absolute condition then I can't make a another required (or bonus) objective auto-fail because of it.

 

Deffinately having a replica is the best and coolest solution.

[LEGION]

I always thought 'ghosting' means that no one sees you. And if there is something wrong, but no Thief has been seen, then there must be a ghost around here. -> should resulting in guards starting to panic and finally they start to scream and run away... (This is not sth. I´d like to be implemented!!)

Edited July 21, 2010 by LEGION

[Alexander]

It is definitely a ghosting failure, but so what? We definitely should not be making AI behave unrealistically just to support a gameplay style that's rather unrealistic to begin with.

 

Well let's face it, ghosting was never an intentional playstyle of LGS anyway, only something people thought of after they'd played the missions properly a few times and got bored, and then some of them start demanding that all missions MUST be ghostable or it's not a proper Thief map.

Due to the unrealistic AI reactions in the Dark Engine, ghosting wasn't really that difficult.

It's clearly a better solution to give the AI as realistic a behaviour as is feasible, and then give the player realistic methods to overcome it, rather than just make dumb AI.

[Sotha]

I had to check the definition of ghosting from another thread:

Informally, it just means completing all objectives without alerting an AI to your presence. He can say something like "just the wind" or "musta been rats", but not to the next level where he knows someone is there. It also means not changing a room; only the loot is missing. So you close doors behind you; don't use consumables (water arrows etc); etc. No KOs. Basically, like a ghost came in, took everything, and disappeared.

 

As I mapper I'll probably avoid actively designing a mission which can ALWAYS be completed without using any equipment and without being seen. I'd say that significant portion of player enjoyment comes from clever use of resources. I'd say that if you can get away with all situations with a conveniently placed shadow or a turning guard its not fun.

 

But yes, replacing a valuable with a fake conforms to clever use of equipment. It is still using consumables, and thus not ghosting? But still. It is more important to make a fun mission than making it ghostable.

 

Does the replacing thing really work? I think I tested it when I played the chalice and the guards never noticed the missing object, but I had turned the lights off near it so maybe the guards never saw it missing.

 

Is there a tutorial how to set up the duplicate object so that it removes the loots absence-marker? I'm looking at the chalice.map in DR and the crown duplicate has no spawnargs which would indicate it to work somehow.

 

What says Fidcal?

[Fidcal]

It doesn't remove the absence marker - it covers it up. This is the weakness. Don't tell anybody but in Chalice you could put the horse manure in place of the crown and so long as it covered up the suspicious marker it would work.

 

BTW in regard to something said earlier, the standing guards cannot quite see the crown - that is why the display stand has back and side plates to obscure their view. Believe me, without that carefully crafted display stand those guards instantly come forward when you take the crown. Only the patrolling guards who come around the front notice it is missing

 

So another way of doing that is KO the two patrolling guards first.

[Baddcog]

I had to check the definition of ghosting from another thread:

 

 

Well, it's more technical than that, there are actually stages of ghosting.

 

Lytha style would be as above, not being heard/seen/not changing anything, using anything.

 

I tend to ghost in 'phantom' mode. They don't know I'm there, but they also don't know why torches go out, where water puddles come from, why things move on their own... Maybe the place is haunted.

But if they go into full alert I'm busted.

 

That was the only thing that bothered me about NAHT. 3 missions of being a sneaky as possible, then on the way out

 

Thunder clap/lighting strike and guards see me scaling the wall and shoot arrows in my back.

 

Didn't ruin the mission for me, but it deffinately forces non-ghost success.

[Goldchocobo]

 

That was the only thing that bothered me about NAHT. 3 missions of being a sneaky as possible, then on the way out

 

Thunder clap/lighting strike and guards see me scaling the wall and shoot arrows in my back.

 

Didn't ruin the mission for me, but it deffinately forces non-ghost success.

 

There is a way around that... climb up behind the crates as you scale up (or coming INTO the mansion) to block the view.

[Baddcog]

There is a way around that... climb up behind the crates as you scale up (or coming INTO the mansion) to block the view.

 

 

Hindsite eh? I guess if you know

climbing up the obvious vine is gonna trigger a lighting flash in front of 5 angry guards...

[gnartsch]

Not sure if this was mentioned before,

but I think the 'swinging on a rope' feature needs some considerable rework.

In the training mission it took me about 30 attempts to make it to the other side of the river.

When doing so, the rope swings back and forth like the rope itself had a weight of 1000 kilos itself and the player has just a few ounces.

This makes it impossbile to figure out when the time is right to jump off to the other side.

In my opinion the rope should move forward fairly straight, because the player at the end of the rope adds the most weight.

With the physics as-is I really hope I don't run into any missions requiring this feature.

Does that make sense ?

[SneaksieDave]

A mission requiring this feature would have to be very careful with that requirement, as this is not really a supported 'official' feature, but more of a fun thing thrown in with some possible use (if I understand the original intention correctly).

[Fidcal]

I think most players don't have any problem swinging over on the rope - they just have trouble learning it in the first place. I know I did. After that it is fine. Bit like blackjacking and lockpicking.

 

IMO the important things to remember are:

 

Get as low on the rope as you can.

Just tap attack on the forward move and don't wait for a huge swing that practically places you on the others side ready to drop off. In real life you would just let go.

Instead you jump off the rope on the far end of a small swing. That is, it is a normal jump except you are further out.

By doing the above it is very very easy to cross that canal. Trust me. I'm a mapper.

[Baddcog]

Yeah, I don't think the rope physics are perfect, but after one or two tries in the demo I was able to do it almost everytime. Just takes some practice.

 

i think it's a really cool feature, but i bet it doesn't get used a whole lot (in fact I think I need to refresh my memory on how it works )

[LEGION]

Oh, I remember that I too had big problems with the rope. But like Fidcal said (same what he said to me that time) you have to be aware that you can jump a wide distance. After I got this into my mind I mastered the next eight tries. And before I missed every jump for, I don´t really wanna know how often I missed.

 

But, I wonder if I could do it now again...

[LEGION]

I tried again, and the first jump I passed, but the next five or six tries I missed.

 

Anyway, I wondered why the rope-swing is not supported by the ropes coming out of rope-arrows.

 

And I would like to see a little swing on the ropes as you climb them related to the climb-speed to build up immersion.

[aidakeeley]

Anyway, I wondered why the rope-swing is not supported by the ropes coming out of rope-arrows.

 

It is, ain't it?

[stumpy]

you can swing on rope arrow ropes, did it myself earlier this evening.

 

for the security doors couldn't there be two varibles placed on the door one for AI opened door and one for player opened door, when door shut varibles are false, if ai opens door, ai varible true, player varible false, if player opens door ai varible false, player varible true, ai spot player varible true, ai go into 2nd stage alert.

[LEGION]

Hm? In the Training Mission it wasn´t possible. I´ll load up another FM and see...

 

Alright, you´re all right, I´m wrong. I guess it wasn´t available in the Training Mission or hmm, I think they didn´t wanted to spoil the swing until you reach the swing-area...

[Fidcal]

you can swing on rope arrow ropes, did it myself earlier this evening.

 

for the security doors couldn't there be two varibles placed on the door one for AI opened door and one for player opened door, when door shut varibles are false, if ai opens door, ai varible true, player varible false, if player opens door ai varible false, player varible true, ai spot player varible true, ai go into 2nd stage alert.

Yes something like that. You might add it to bugtracker but there are a lot of things to do...

[Nosslak]

I don't think it would be particularly easy but one thing that I'd want to see in The Dark Mod (or all first-person games really) is a more animated body (like in Mirrors Edge and FEAR). If I climb a ladder I'd want to see my character grab each step and if I mantle an object I would like to see my characters hands and arms when he pulls himself up. That would probably be pretty hard to do but one thing which would probably be easier would be to animate some legs that you could see from the first person perspective.

[Bikerdude]

Crisis of Capitalism

Just watched this.... so true...

[Fidcal]

I don't think it would be particularly easy but one thing that I'd want to see in The Dark Mod (or all first-person games really) is a more animated body (like in Mirrors Edge and FEAR). If I climb a ladder I'd want to see my character grab each step and if I mantle an object I would like to see my characters hands and arms when he pulls himself up. That would probably be pretty hard to do but one thing which would probably be easier would be to animate some legs that you could see from the first person perspective.

Sorry but body awareness has been well discussed by the team and will not be implemented. We are generally all agreed on this.

[SiyahParsomen]

Don't know if it's mentioned before, but I want to say;

 

There isn't any loud scream of player when he dies. Remember Garrett's death scream. It makes you a little afraid when you die. But in tdm I don't feel that.

[Springheel]

There isn't any loud scream of player when he dies

 

There definitely is a player death sound.

[SiyahParsomen]

Well, I checked four death sounds again. I got big respect to vocalist (probably New Horizon), but I prefer doom 3 death sounds. I don't know the correct definition for it, but loud one sounds more like mouthwash to me. I would prefer a shrill? one which can startle me. Do community really afraid when they die in a mission? this's the question should be considered.

 

And yeah, there's no way to satisfy everyone in the community

Edited August 11, 2010 by SiyahParsomen