Things that could be improved

[LEGION]

Oh, oops. That´s from UnrealEd, just a zone where the player gets hurt or killed. I thought that would be available in DarkRadiant, too? Maybe not with this name though...

[Fidcal]

Yes, a damage stim can be set up and turned on and off.

 

btw, that fall into water should take damage is a fine example of a change that might be a map breaker. Even if it were decided that would be an 'improvement' imo the decision has been made and it should remain as it is.

[Tels]

Yes, a damage stim can be set up and turned on and off.

 

btw, that fall into water should take damage is a fine example of a change that might be a map breaker. Even if it were decided that would be an 'improvement' imo the decision has been made and it should remain as it is.

 

Ah, yeah, so mappers now decide how the future of TDM looks :-(

 

For the slow ones among us let me explain:

 

If there is no map with high water, we can make the chance. If there is a map, but the mapper says "yeah I never intended the player to survive 100m falls", we can make the change. But if the mapper says "waah I need the player to survive, you can't fix the bug", we cannot make the chance. That is unacceptable to me. Because it means we can never change ANYTHING because it MIGHT break ANY MAP out there (even if the map isn't released yet). That goes for changing textures ("waah it changes the look of my mission and breaks the puzzle where I aligned a patch for 3 hours"), to light radii, to damage amounts, to whatever. You name it, someone will complain. Thats not good.

[nbohr1more]

(This is probably a bad idea but I won't know till I get yelled at... )

 

With the exception of visual TDM changes like new textures, could you have a legacy mode switch that mappers could add to their maps? Too cumbersome? Encourages reliance on Bugs? Bad practice?

 

Edit:

(yup... I think it was a bad idea... )

Edited August 17, 2010 by nbohr1more

[Diego]

Ah, yeah, so mappers now decide how the future of TDM looks :-(

 

For the slow ones among us let me explain:

 

If there is no map with high water, we can make the chance. If there is a map, but the mapper says "yeah I never intended the player to survive 100m falls", we can make the change. But if the mapper says "waah I need the player to survive, you can't fix the bug", we cannot make the chance. That is unacceptable to me. Because it means we can never change ANYTHING because it MIGHT break ANY MAP out there (even if the map isn't released yet). That goes for changing textures ("waah it changes the look of my mission and breaks the puzzle where I aligned a patch for 3 hours"), to light radii, to damage amounts, to whatever. You name it, someone will complain. Thats not good.

 

I wouldn't worry about that! there are a lot of things you can change without breaking existing FMs. For example: You can change all the animations but not the AI's speeds. You can change all textures but you can't change the dimensions or the content (if it's a wooden skull it should continue being one).

 

Aside from that, if there's anything really worthy of changing just make it an addition instead of changing the one existing (in case of models, textures, etc)

[Sotha]

I have one improvement suggestion.

 

Sometimes (well, usually) when I am looting more complex objects, like the byro with pullable drawers I encounter this problem.

 

I've much difficulty in aiming inside the objects.

 

I'll elaborate. When I've something in the middle of the screen it gets frob-highlighted. If I have a drawer with a book in it, I've much difficulty in highlighting the book. I'm constantly highlighting the drawer.

 

I understand that the object in the center of the view is the one which will hightlight, but it is sometimes hard for me to quickly understand which part of the screen is the middle spot. And it is quite usual that loot is picked up in a hurry. When the guards approach there is no time to constantly frob the drawer instead of the object inside.

 

Would there be a possibility to add some kind of subtle crosshair or a circle in the middle of the screen to help object frobbing? It should be only small, and it should have a lot of transparency so it won't obstruct the view too much. Just a small helper. It'd be nice to have an option to turn it on or off.

 

What say you?

[Baddcog]

It's not like that at all Tels.

I've done quite a bit on the mod so it's not like it's just 'a mapper making a decision or crying about a bug fix'

 

I'm pretty sure the 1.0 release was LOCK DOWN. From there on no major changes were going to happen. Additions yes, tweaks yes. But major changes to gameplay NO.

Changing how water works is a BIG deal imo. Why not decide to change gravity now.

 

Further more it's not even an argument that makes sense. Like I said several times now I have done jumps that big in real life and NOT taken damage. That's also the way water worked in T2 and that's what most players are used to. So why would we change that? Nobody has ever complained or even brought it up as far as I'm aware until you didn't think my map was 'realistic'.

And I don't know if you've ever cliff jumped, maybe not, so maybe in your mind that isn't realistic. But in reality from my experience it is.

 

even if textures are 'change/improved' they should either be as close as match as possible or just simply an addition. Sure, I don't want to spend an hour aligning patch tex, then have someone replace that tex with one that doesn't match color/style/tiling and have my map look like crap a year later. If the tex gets better but doesn't fundemantally change that's another story.

 

----

And it WOULD break my map if we all of a sudden decided based on my map and your personal view of height/water where the player should take damage. Why change that system?

When instead IF an author wants the water to do damage there are simple ways to do so.

 

Damage Stim (fake and probably piss players off because they don't see why it would happen.

 

Rocks under the surface. Cruel, why would you give players a pool of water to jump in and then sabotage them with rocks?

-----

The point of the mod is to have people build maps we can play. You either like the map or you don't, but if we go changing fundemenatl basics of how TDM works then mappers are gonna get pissed and be confused and probably stop using it.

[LEGION]

As I talked about great heights I really meant great heights. Higher than what I saw so far in a mission.

In special cases the mapper maybe don´t want the player to jump down and shorten the way dramatically, but to take the route as intended by the mapper.

The best would be a little hurt and not an instant death, so nothing really 'breaks'. Just to make the player think whether he really should jump or not, as he would in real life...

[Diego]

I have one improvement suggestion.

 

Sometimes (well, usually) when I am looting more complex objects, like the byro with pullable drawers I encounter this problem.

 

I've much difficulty in aiming inside the objects.

 

I'll elaborate. When I've something in the middle of the screen it gets frob-highlighted. If I have a drawer with a book in it, I've much difficulty in highlighting the book. I'm constantly highlighting the drawer.

 

I understand that the object in the center of the view is the one which will hightlight, but it is sometimes hard for me to quickly understand which part of the screen is the middle spot. And it is quite usual that loot is picked up in a hurry. When the guards approach there is no time to constantly frob the drawer instead of the object inside.

 

Would there be a possibility to add some kind of subtle crosshair or a circle in the middle of the screen to help object frobbing? It should be only small, and it should have a lot of transparency so it won't obstruct the view too much. Just a small helper. It'd be nice to have an option to turn it on or off.

 

What say you?

 

I'm trying to bring this up for ages! I always forget It can be frustrating to pick up objects that are inside a chest.

[LEGION]

If the crosshair is an option, it would be an improvement, yes. I´ll play most of the time without the hud anyway...

[Baddcog]

I heard of one guy who just took a tiny marker and put a black dot right in the center of his screen

[Springheel]

I'd personally hate a crosshair. It wouldn't help in many situations anyway. Something can be in the middle of your screen and still not froblight, depending on what else is around it and what the frob bias is.

 

I agree that objects are hard to get out of chests and drawers though. I find leaning often helps in those situations, but it would be nice to figure something else out.

[Diego]

you mentioned a 'frob bias'? maybe loot could have priority over doors and other stuff.

[Sotha]

Well, I thought the crosshair as the most simple fix for the issue. I certainly agree that it would be better to make the frobbing better. There would be no need for a crosshair then.

If loot and other objects had higher priority over doors, it would be nice. However, this solution makes proper use of frobcontrol entities even more important as the door won't shield the objects inside.

It might be equally frustrating to try to get the drawer open and all you're frobbing is the object inside.Difficult..

[Fidcal]

you mentioned a 'frob bias'? maybe loot could have priority over doors and other stuff.

it doesn't want a general bias or loot that is meant to be 'discrete' just behind an object on a shelf would be too prominent. It is up to the mapper to test and adjust any item that is difficult to frob. They have four means of doing this frobbox_size, frob_distance, frob_bias, plus position, and of course, decreasing these on surrounding objects. This is not a Dark Mod issue but a mapper issue. The Dark Mod team has already fine-tuned the defaults pretty good imo.

[Fidcal]

you mentioned a 'frob bias'? maybe loot could have priority over doors and other stuff.

it doesn't want a general bias or loot that is meant to be 'discrete' just behind an object on a shelf would be too prominent. It is up to the mapper to test and adjust any item that is difficult to frob. They have four means of doing this frobbox_size, frob_distance, frob_bias, plus position, and of course, decreasing these on surrounding objects. This is not a Dark Mod issue but a mapper issue. The Dark Mod team has already fine-tuned the defaults pretty good imo.

[aidakeeley]

I (almost) completely understand even though I've not "done the work" how a mapper might feel about a change breaking his or her map... I just know that it'll happen a lot. Again, I could be wrong but I'd bet Yasgur's Farm on it. Tels seems to see what I'm getting at. I think mappers might have to be prepared to deal with the "breaking" of maps...

 

BUT, what I'm trying to put along side this to maybe keep the anxiety down is that, no, you won't have to worry so much and, no, you won't ever have to go back and redo your beautiful missions; god what a miserable pain that would be, yes...

 

This is a mod. This is the age of mass storage and mass bandwidth and paradigm shifts every hour... that old mission can be played exactly as it was intended to be played... load up TDM ver.whatever. No reason not to redundantly store and "lock down" any and all versions past, present, and future.

 

BTW, I didn't read all that's been said here between last time I was here and now, but if there is a question about water killing you from a high jump? I just used deep water to save myself from being stuck, or crippled or fucked all together... so I know it doesn't kill you.

[LEGION]

Maybe it´s not a good idea to always throw in new ideas into here between ongoing discussions, very likely they get oversaw. But, well:

What´s about an additional notes-screen, like the objective-screen for ingame, where either the mapper can place some hints and the player himself can type some notes! (Thief 2 had that as I now remember)

 

I really hope, the team does read from time to time older posts and collect suggestions maybe? Some good things were posted in here...

[Fidcal]

It has been discussed in the past by the team but low priority. Sorry for the repeating record but too many other tasks and too few to do them. I personally also wanted an optional inventory player notes which updated with a summary of what to do as the game progressed. This is not quite the same thing but mapper-prepared texts to supplement clues. I did this in my Thief FM but the problem was appending new text to the same document in an unknown order depending on the player's route. It needs new code.

 

I have also aired another idea for a guide stone that can give help. The idea is if you absolutely get stuck and don't want to break the immersion by posting in a forum for help and waiting an unknown time you could use the guide stone. It would give different degrees of help. It would be like a series of spoilers - hint, nudge, or full summary of what to do. There might be a price. Maybe a limited number of uses so players would use them reluctantly in case they were needed later. Maybe cost so much in loot. Either way is easily cheated with quickload. This is something I could do if I could find time. Once set up, mappers would only need to create the entity and type in their help text.

[aidakeeley]

Maybe it´s not a good idea to always throw in new ideas into here between ongoing discussions, very likely they get oversaw. But, well:

 

Having had my say, I'll stop my speculatin and pontificatin on you-can't-expect-changes-to-not-change-things-especially-where-a-beta

 

There might be a price

 

The price being you know you had to use the stone...

 

Shame is enough!

 

But seriously, I've come to find out lately that most people consult walk-throughs these days. It's as if they are a given for many adventure "gamers". Why, in my day... I tell ya... We'danever...

 

I think it's a good idea just to simply put it in no penalty or wait or limiting system needed. If it encourages more adventuring-puzzlings-stylee-styles, because the audience will not freak out... then good indeed!

Edited August 18, 2010 by aidakeeley

[Springheel]

how a mapper might feel about a change breaking his or her map... I just know that it'll happen a lot.

 

The development team is committed to making sure that doesn't happen.

[SneaksieDave]

As a public service announcement: Since the mod is released, along with the source, players are welcomed to come up with their own mods/additions/contributions and submit them for consideration in the official distribution. It's not like we have an army working behind the curtain.

 

Code (TDM or DarkRadiant)

Textures

Models

Vocals

Sound effects

etc...

 

Several features in TDM came along just that way: as an item submitted (by team member or not) that just made everyone say, "Wow, that's neat! Let's use it."

[LEGION]

@Fidcal:

Hmm, to be honest, that questionstone would break immersion for me too. But maybe not, just my first thoughts. The prize could be to just make the stone available three times f.e.. Hints that are posted in the readme could serve that too, but you would have to quit the game, unless the notes-screen is made scrollable. But if you need a new code for the notes/hint-system, hmm. Well, they don´t have to be in order, if they´re checked after used (maybe due to players choice).

 

 

Another question: Is it possible to toggle the item-text on & off? (under weapons and inventory)

[Springheel]

Hmm, to be honest, that questionstone would break immersion for me

 

Same here. I'd rather the mapper created some kind of menu-driven help system than have it part of the inventory.

[Fidcal]

This confusion is because I didn't describe it fully. It is part of the story. It is nothing to do with the Hud. It is in a sense like a readable. They are fantastical or magical objects of inspiration. I've been considering one as an objective in my next FM. Thereafter Farrell can use it in later FMs. Possible names might be guide stone, dark crystal, angel stone whatever. It need not even be a stone but it seemed a convenient object. Stones have often been ascribed magical or mystical powers and they can be small enough to carry.

 

When Farrell is in doubt as to how to proceed he can draw on its inspirational powers in the same way he uses a holy potion or a health potion or any other fantastical tool. He might hear a disembodied voice, see a vision, read a scroll from heaven whatever. It's still only a rough concept in my mind and might never happen. Furthermore, even if it happens, it is entirely optional. You do not need to use it if you prefer to get frustrated, save the game, exit, ask in a forum, and wait a few hours before resuming.

 

It's derived from the fortune teller in Shenmue on the Dreamcast. In that game if at any time you got stuck you could go to the fortune teller and have your fortune read or get guidance etc for a price. Seemed a neat story way to give extra clues.