Things that could be improved

[wesp5]

Something is not right with the setup of the patch on your system then, I can run "Hazard Pay" fine!

But I did find an error in the Holy Water damage script, use the attached version or the hotfix upload.

tdm_damage.def

Edited July 18, 2022 by wesp5

[LaughingMan008]

That did it! The holy water works now. 1 shot, 1 kill.

Have you tried playing Hazard Pay with the latest version of your patch? Maybe something got broken. I redownloaded the patch from ModDB and reinstalled it and I still get the error.

[wesp5]

I just started Hazard Pay with the version on my system and it worked. Or does the error happen if you use Holy Water?

Edited July 18, 2022 by wesp5

[LaughingMan008]

2 hours ago, wesp5 said:

I just started Hazard Pay with the version on my system and it worked. Or does the error happen if you use Holy Water?

Error happens as soon as I try to load the level. I don't get it. Clean install of The Dark Mod, clean install of your mod.

[Bluehawk]

This might sound odd, but I wish it were easier to kill rats in the Dark Mod using the sword. Presently it feels nearly impossible and you're better off using broadheads. There are maybe only a handful of times when you need to kill a rat, like in Chronicles of Skullduggery 3 or arguably Full Moon Fever, so it's not a huge problem (or a problem at all), but in an immersive sim, skewering a stationary rat on the tip of your sword really shouldn't be so tricky.

[wesp5]

10 hours ago, LaughingMan008 said:

Error happens as soon as I try to load the level. I don't get it. Clean install of The Dark Mod, clean install of your mod.

Damn, you are right. I did a fresh install of the mission and get the same error now! It seems there was an update that is incompatible. I must see that I can fix that, because Hazard Pay is one of the most impressive differently looking mission!

Edited July 19, 2022 by wesp5

[LaughingMan008]

1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

Damn, you are right. I did a fresh install of the mission and get the same error now! It seems there was an update that is incompatible. I must see that I can fix that, because Hazard Pay is one of the most impressive differently looking mission!

I wondered if it was just me! It was seeming like it! XD
I deleted "tdm_playertools.def" and it worked, btw. So it seems like the error is in that file somewhere.

Btw, since we're on the subject of modding your mod, I have a random question. The ONLY thing I don't like about your mod is the way items and loot fly towards the player when frobbed. Is there any easy way to disable that by deleting a file or changing a line that won't break the rest of the mod?

[wesp5]

46 minutes ago, LaughingMan008 said:

The ONLY thing I don't like about your mod is the way items and loot fly towards the player when frobbed. Is there any easy way to disable that by deleting a file or changing a line that won't break the rest of the mod?

You could probable remove that by deleting everthing connected to "bird" in tdm_frobactions.script!

[LaughingMan008]

19 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

You could probable remove that by deleting everthing connected to "bird" in tdm_frobactions.script!

That did it! Thanks!
Let me know if you get that bug for Hazard Pay fixed.

[wesp5]

5 hours ago, LaughingMan008 said:

Let me know if you get that bug for Hazard Pay fixed.

I found the problem and it seems I fixed it on my system already, I only need to update the patch.

[LaughingMan008]

8 hours ago, wesp5 said:

I found the problem and it seems I fixed it on my system already, I only need to update the patch.

Bad news. I just downloaded the 16.6 patch from ModDB, and now doors don't work.
Ive checked multiple levels, and frobbing doors does not open them. They just stay closed. Or you cant shut them if somebody else opens them. Frobbing itself still works. Its not a keybind thing. You can still frob books and readables. I haven't checked chests.

I checked in Training Mission, Sound and Blackjack Training, and Thomas Porter 6 where I first noticed it.

I just deleted "tdm_mover_doors.def" from the "def" folder, and doors work again.

Edited July 20, 2022 by LaughingMan008

[snatcher]

4 hours ago, LaughingMan008 said:

I just deleted "tdm_mover_doors.def" from the "def" folder, and doors work again.

Patch 16.6 is good. You just had that residue from a previous version.

@wesp5, to prevent this from happening to others that had previous recent versions of the patch, consider including the original, unmodded, tdm_mover_doors.def.

[wesp5]

Another time for a update. @Snatcher: Why was it necessary to remove the changes from that file in the first place?

Edited July 20, 2022 by wesp5

[Ideal]

Is there a way to optionally disable AIs' head turning animations? In the Thief games you could rely on AIs never spotting you right behind them since they always looked straight ahead, but in TDM it's quite possible for them to catch sight of you because they decided to turn to face the floor and caught you in their vision cones. Makes the process of pickpocketing or blackjacking more luck-based than I feel it should be.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Ideal

[AluminumHaste]

I'm sure wesps will be in here in a moment to add it to his patch

[wesp5]

1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

I'm sure wesps will be in here in a moment to add it to his patch

Oh no, I'm all for realism, so this is fine with me :)!

[Ideal]

I see the case for realism, but the existing combination of random head turns and guards' peripheral vision makes it so that the player's success in some cases is dependent on a real element of luck alongside skill, which I think detracts from the experience and can cause confusion regarding what, if anything, the player did wrong. I first noticed this issue in the official training mission, in the room that has you creeping on top of a metal grate. If you're not lucky approaching the door to the next room the guard can turn his head far enough to the left as part of his idle behavior that he'll be able to see you no matter what, causing detection in a room where you're clearly intended to succeed so long as you're being quiet and careful.

Personally I'd be in favor of changing AIs' vision cones to be much narrower whenever they're facing any direction other than straight ahead. That'd solve the problem while preserving the wealth of animations and realistic movement.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Ideal

[CrisiusXIII]

CLEAN THOSE BUFFERS

i think that part off some problems is that old code is still in the buffer.

especialy with (quick) LOAD that is provable. if you save on a real dark spot and walk into the light next to a guard, the guard will see you and probably kill you

if you restart the original DARK spot will have a LIGTH notice in the darkness-button by which that SAME GUARD sees you WHILE NOT in the original saving

this means the guard REACTS ON CODE THAT WAS FROM THE LAST USE BEFORE THE RELOAD

!!!

realy, sorry for the shouting, but this is important.

if i RELOAD TWICE the "late ligth" effect is gone!

but the only way the guard can see me enligthed while i am in the dark

is becouse off OLD CODE IN THE BUFFER!

i am 100% sure about it.

[AluminumHaste]

1 hour ago, Ideal said:

I see the case for realism, but the existing combination of random head turns and guards' peripheral vision makes it so that the player's success in some cases is dependent on a real element of luck alongside skill, which I think detracts from the experience and can cause confusion regarding what, if anything, the player did wrong. I first noticed this issue in the official training mission, in the room that has you creeping on top of a metal grate. If you're not lucky approaching the door to the next room the guard can turn his head far enough to the left as part of his idle behavior that he'll be able to see you no matter what, causing detection in a room where you're clearly intended to succeed so long as you're being quiet and careful.

Personally I'd be in favor of changing AIs' vision cones to be much narrower whenever they're facing any direction other than straight ahead. That'd solve the problem while preserving the wealth of animations and realistic movement.

Turn some Ai visual acuity into you are used to it.

[Ideal]

48 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Turn some Ai visual acuity into you are used to it.

Is that something I can do as a player? The AI Vision setting from the difficulty menu doesn't seem to affect the dimensions of the cone based on my testing and the "showfov" command.

[Xolvix]

The AI randomly turning their heads is interesting because it brings up a somewhat contentious issue I've seen when it comes to stealth games - how predictable should the AI in a stealth game be?

I've heard the argument that the AI should follow a rigorous set of rules with the randomness taken to a minimum, at least while they are in their relaxed state. The reason is because the player needs to be able to plan their actions based around patrols and behaviour from the AI if they want to remain in stealth, and that info can't be obtained if the AI starts drifting off from predictability.

But some prefer little moments of unpredictability like the turning heads because it means the player can never be completely certain of what they will do, plus it helps the AI appear more human and less like robots. There's other elements of unpredictability too - sometimes they'll stop and eat something from their pocket for example, cough, smell their finger I think? Plus some mappers code the AI's patrol routes to be randomly chosen from a set rather than being the same each time.

I think with regards to the heads turning at least, I do like it and feel it's a part of TDM's character, but damn if I haven't been caught out by this at times and reloaded a saved game because they decided to look where they shouldn't.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Xolvix

[Ideal]

I like randomness to an extent, accounting for NPCs' spontaneous decisions is a welcome part of the challenge for me, so long as there's enough of a window of predictability for the player to work with without having to rely on favorable RNG. NPCs in Dishonored for example often don't have fixed patrol paths, but you can generally expect them to reach a logical point in their walk before deciding what to do next, if they take out a cigarette, you can expect them to just stand there facing their current direction for a while, etc.

With the head turning here, though, often there's little a player who's aware of that behavior can do if being in complete darkness is not an option, as in the training room I mentioned above.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Ideal

[Obsttorte]

I rarely have any issues with the head turning. Surely it can happen that you get spotted, but shouldn't approaching a heavy armed guy be somewhat risky!? If you encounter this to be troublesome for you, why don't you try another approach first. You have the means to take out the guard in most missions and you are with some exceptions not forced to pickpocket every ai in a mission.

The argument with the training mission is valid, though, and that section probably needs rethinking. On the other hand it already informs new players that they may get spotted by ai even if the consider to be in a relatively save spot. So maybe it isn't such an issue after all.

[Obsttorte]

9 hours ago, CrisiusXIII said:

[...]

realy, sorry for the shouting, but this is important.

[...]

i am 100% sure about it.

And you don't trust us to get this by bringing up arguments instead?

Good for you.

But seriously, if you encounter an issue present it in a way that we can clearly see what the issue is, so we have something we can work with. Otherwise you will most likely be ignored. I mean, what do you mean by THOSE BUFFERS???

 

[thebigh]

I don't know what all the BUFFERS! yelling is about, but the point about the light gem is accurate.

If you save a game while in darkness, walk into a bright area, then load the savegame your light gem will still be momentarily lit.

This could be fixed by either saving the light gem state when you save a game, or having the light gem default to unlit when you load.