New Contest?

[STiFU]

Beauty and performance should go hand in hand of course. Since this contest would be intended to be a showcase, things that don't run should affect rating negatively. I like the idea of a beauty contest as it is bound to lure more players to TDM. We could release a small video showing some of the beauty of TDM.

[nbohr1more]

This is a tough one.

 

Doom 3 is very scalable, so it's unlikely that a mapper would hit an obstruction that affects all classes of hardware (maybe entity limit?) the way that many Dromed based missions are claimed to behave... But instead it is perfectly possible that a mission could be made that runs beautifully on a High-End system yet destroys any other class of hardware. The results would be interesting...

 

Maybe (selfishly?) the best looking mission that runs on x class of hardware (hopefully not much higher than mine ).

[Fidcal]

Not all contests have to produce playable FMs. Suppose a one or two-week or one-month contest where each entrant just produces one unplayable demo area. An 'area' might be a single large main hallway, with views through doors perhaps but perhaps playerclip blocked as they are just part of the eye candy for the main area. Or if you will, the area can be as big as you like and a hundred rooms if you can do it in two weeks but you'll be competing against others who devote all that time to one tiny area.

 

No votes for gameplay or story or performance just entirely on how good it looks even if the player cannot move at 0fps.

 

Each entry remains an independent brag demo - no attempt to merge them into a playable game.

 

Each area becomes a 3D painting to demonstrate how good TDM can look. Once that benchmark is set then mappers can say, right, this is what is possible, how close can we get to that in a playable game?

 

Ideas:

 

A high balcony looking out onto a street with dozens of townsfolk wallking up and down, scores of lights, thousands of models, market stalls, noise, etc. etc

 

Endless rooftops in torrential rain or snow overlooking a busy street far below.

 

A HUGE castle from the outside with intricate details and scores of guards patrolling.

 

A Grand Canyon or huge cavern, etc etc.

[Sotha]

Not all contests have to produce playable FMs.

 

No votes for gameplay or story or performance just entirely on how good it looks even if the player cannot move at 0fps.

 

Each entry remains an independent brag demo - no attempt to merge them into a playable game.

 

Each area becomes a 3D painting to demonstrate how good TDM can look. Once that benchmark is set then mappers can say, right, this is what is possible, how close can we get to that in a playable game?

 

• What's the point in that? People would get better results quicker with image editing/rendering software. And the level of detail is useless in a game if it is utterly unplayable. It will give an unrealistic promise what is possible and what is not in TDM.
• I don't see why mappers should work for weeks in DR to yield a picture! A picture which is checked, rated and forgotten. A FM will always be there for new TDM newbies to find, play and enjoy. It's an example how to make maps for new mappers.
• There would be no enticement for new people to go and try mapping. No one sane would learn DR only to make a picture.
• Creating a map always hones the mappers skills. This contest would not improve the mappers gameplay and story skills at all. And most likely these are the skills which are most needed in order to get those killer missions which brainwash T1/T2 fanatics into TDM fanatics. Thus providing a source of new, skilled and veteran dromed mappers.
• There would be no flurry of new FM's for the mission hungry community. The prospect of getting something new to play usually brings a lot of publicity and interest in the contest.

Sorry again for my negativity. Must be the autumn getting the best of me.

[Springheel]

I tend to agree with Sotha. Anything that ties up mappers in an activity that isn't going to result in playable maps is probably counter-productive.

[Baddcog]

I don't agree at all.

 

The T2 beauty missions might not get played alot but certianly aren't 'forgotten'.

 

These missions would in large part show things that can be done architecturally to give other authors ideas of how to use DR. Nothing wasted there as far as I'm concerned. They don't have to 'cripple' anyones system to be beautiful. Look at the posts of recent Dromed missions here, Rose Cottage isn't s system crippler but can anyone say the screens aren't beautiful?

 

It also lets authors hone their building skills some, in fact forces them to concentrate soley on that. I know alot of us have WIPs, and I'd like to build something cool on the side, but not be juggling two stories at once. I've got plenty of tough work on convs, scripting, etc... that I don't really want 2 projects like that going simultaneously.

I mean I guess if ALL you are working on is a contest mission you might want to put more into it.

And I see no reason why that couldn't also be allowed, but beauty would be the main point.

 

If the point of the contest is soley to hone your story telling skills then maybe it should be a 'write a story' contest.

 

Why wouldn't people learn DR to make a 'picture'. Would be alot easier for a newb than making a picture, a story, conversations, etc.... Your point is that doing the building is not enough to cram down a newbs throught so they should have to do it all, and that will make the learning process easier? I'd think a whole mission would just make it more difficult, you spend more time bug stomping, trouble shooting then just building.

 

Sometimes contests need to push you in a certian direction. A beauty contest would do that. A horror contest would do that. The vert contest did that.

[nbohr1more]

Easy solution for "Beauty Contest":

 

Some hardware and FPS limit.

 

Eg:

 

i7 3ghz & GTX470 @ 15FPS Minimum

 

Or

 

A64 2Ghz & Ti 4600 @ 10FPS Min?

[SneaksieDave]

I lean toward the "should be playable" side. And by playable, I only mean the very loose criteria of you should be able to move around in it. I wouldn't want to stand still and look at a simple picture, but walk around in the picture? Oh yes.

[Baddcog]

That's an impossible stipulation though. Computers vary so much between users, mine's pretty high end but would I have to find someone with a lower end maching to continually test my FPS so it doesn't drop too much. Then if it did I have to undo stuff, have it tested, redo , test, add test, remove test... Would spend more time shipping out map versions than mapping.

 

I see no reason why we couldn't just aim for decent FPS. I got an average of 30 in my contest mission and never heard any complaints of FPS so low it wasn't playable...

[nbohr1more]

Well if the "minimum" were reasonably high-end, then you wouldn't need to worry about the low-enders just make sure you don't go below the minimum FPS for the high-end. If your PC is below the High-End spec then if it's playable for you, you meet the criteria. If you want to be kind to the low-enders you can always make sacrifices. For Baddcog, he can make a pretty yet playable map for almost any TDM capable hardware with like 5 polys and two lights, he's just that good... but I suspect that Sneaksie wants to see what he can do with 6 polys and three lights ...

[SneaksieDave]

Indeed to clarify, I would think for a beauty contest, framerate should be kept reasonable enough to allow the majority of players to move around and enjoy the aesthetics. Obviously 2 FPS is not enjoyable, so that would likely hurt that entry's scores. Some will be unhappy with 15FPS, others will be fine with it. That said, framerate, IMO, should be of secondary concern. It's a beauty contest, not a performance contest.

 

It'd be a fuzzy line of course, but voting would decide the overall most pleasing experience.

[Fidcal]

I don't mean that all entries would mean 0fps but if someone has a great idea for a beautiful scene of a reflective lake at sunset with a bridge and 500 trees and 100 picnic AI then finds half way through building that framerate is plummeting then it is a shame to compromise. I'd rather see that view than a lesser view I can walk a little faster.

 

Don't you have any curiosity as to just what is possible with TDM pushed to the edge and beyond? And we are not committing people to waste a year but just a few weeks.

 

We all experiment to learn different things. I bet most mappers have a ton of test or discarded maps of different sorts that will never see the light of day. Is that all a waste of time? Not if they've learnt from it - even if they learnt what NOT to do.

[Baddcog]

Yeah, that would be a good way to judge it I think.

 

If you tank under 10 FPS it would be hard to even walk around take a look.

 

And of course performance hit would count more against an outside view of a large beautiful rolling countryside, but a really beautiful crypt could run very well, just not score as high is people didn't see it as a stunny scene like maybe a rolling countryside would be.

 

The one reason I like a beauty idea is it can bring out alot in design choices and get people to expirement more, try for visuals that they might not otherwise try in a serious play map because the performance concerns aren't a nagging threat. Get you to go outside the comfort zone and try new things, which can open eyes to things that are possible, rather than pre-concieved notions of what can be done and work.

---------

I think you're right Fidcal, this would be cool for like a month contest maybe. Would still give time for someone to do a x-mas contest afterwards.

I'm not really up for another full mission right now anyway, maybe not even by x-mas, but a little demo area to try stuff out would be fun. Couple weeks, turn it in , no sweat, fun.

[SneaksieDave]

And just so it's mentioned at some point (if a contest starts, maybe a mention in the statement would be good): a reminder that beauty is not always visual. It could be a concept, something brilliant (e.g. a scripted machine), music and ambience, even story.

[Sotha]

Hey, this is turning into a nice discussion. I love it when a topic, which sparks a multitude of point of views, surfaces.

 

If the point of the contest is soley to hone your story telling skills then maybe it should be a 'write a story' contest.

 

The art of telling a story in a computer game is far different than writing a story. In a written story things occur exactly the way the author wants. In an interactive game the player should be able to make decisions, which affect things. And it should be fun and look pleasing. Therefore well rounded experience with skills in gameplay, story and beauty are important.

 

It also lets authors hone their building skills some, in fact forces them to concentrate soley on that.

[..]

Why wouldn't people learn DR to make a 'picture'. Your point is that doing the building is not enough to cram down a newbs throught so they should have to do it all, and that will make the learning process easier? I'd think a whole mission would just make it more difficult, you spend more time bug stomping, trouble shooting then just building.

 

Making a small yet complete mission is a well rounded experience, where the mapper gets to try and learn all the main aspects of mapping. I find this more useful to just learn to build. Bug stomping and troubleshooting are part of the process and it should be learned.

 

On hardware limitations

Of course we could set a recommended maximum scene r_showprimitives tris-count. Actually I would personally like to know what kind of values to aim at.

 

On contest type selection

Of course we could ask the community. This approach might maximize the participating mappers. Have a poll with contest suggestions from this thread and ask the mappers "which one of these contest you would most likely want to enter and make a map for it?" Having an option "none. don't have time" would also give an estimate how many mappers would be interested in the contest in the first place.

 

Also it might be interesting to have a poll which asks the players which type of contest entries they would like to see.

 

Keep the discussion going. This is gonna be interesting!

[LEGION]

And just so it's mentioned at some point (if a contest starts, maybe a mention in the statement would be good): a reminder that beauty is not always visual. It could be a concept, something brilliant (e.g. a scripted machine), music and ambience, even story.

 

I totally agree. After all TDM is a game, so people should play and have fun and it´s useful for pushing TDM forward. That´s no reason to abandon the picture-idea, I just don´t see it in a contest. Releasing it as videos/screenshots would be better for the low-enders, if I get the idea.

[Arcturus]

I like the idea of a beauty contest. I personally would like to play less missions for the price of better visuals.

[Baddcog]

I totally agree. After all TDM is a game, so people should play and have fun and it´s useful for pushing TDM forward. That´s no reason to abandon the picture-idea, I just don´t see it in a contest. Releasing it as videos/screenshots would be better for the low-enders, if I get the idea.

 

 

I don't think anyone was taking about a picture contest, Sotha just said 'picture' as something to look at I imagine.

 

But this would be a size limit/ free roam map, not just a single view by any means. Just concentrated more on visual effects rather than typical play time FM. If you can look at the T2 ones do it, some are really quite nice.

 

And of course an author could always expand on it, us it as a map base, drop it in a WIP... So watching performance could have larger impacts than just for the contest too.

[Mortem Desino]

So long as the beauty contest is interactive to some extent. I don't want to ogle at a screen shot, I want to play it on a big screen.

 

And I want to hear some beautiful sounds. Pretty pictures mean much less alongside audio in this sort of game.

[Baddcog]

Yeah the point of it is a beautiful ENVIROMENT. Walk around poke at stuff, see different angles, hear things, etc...

[Berny]

Sorry for digging out this old thread, but why making a new one when this one perfectly fits.

 

I just wanna ask if there are any plans for new contests? I'd like to have a discussion which contest theme will be next.

 

 

[Sotha]

Sorry for digging out this old thread, but why making a new one when this one perfectly fits.

 

I just wanna ask if there are any plans for new contests? I'd like to have a discussion which contest theme will be next.

 

I was wondering about the same thing the other day.

This thread is full is theme ideas, so inventing a theme isnt that hard.

 

All it takes is that Someone With The Power decides the theme, deadline and starts gathering enrollments.

[Aprilsister]

Well, if it does occur, whatever it is, I hope it's a real challenge in that the time allotted is two weeks!

[Midnight]

It seems to me that contests should be geared towards showing what TDM can do well, which T2 and / or TDS may have lacked.

 

Example: Physics Contest

 

Physics based puzzles have to be a central theme to the missions. I suppose 'The Swing' is an example of such a mission, but we could see a lot of variety with this idea IMO.

[Berny]

A whole physics contest like Swing.. I think that's too early. Swing was nice but a lot of these missions, I don't like that.

 

My op. Physics could be a main part in the mission, everybody should cunstruct a few physics elements and this in a not namend background theme, if at all.