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Is there a correct way to knock out a guard?


bambini
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Is there some sort of trick to it? Many a time I've done what I felt was a perfect knockout, only for the bugger to go "oof", then around and give me the business end of his sword. What gives?

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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First, have you read the instructions on the wiki? There are certain conditions where backjacking will not work.

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=The_Dark_Mod_Gameplay#Blackjacking

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Somebody wrote some hints for better blackjacking. Things like aiming for the back part of the head and off-set to the left a bit, since the blackjack actually moves in an arc slightly right to left, and is the proper height when it reaches the head if you offset to the left a little (if it's centered or too far right, it may overshoot and hit too low or something like that.). There's also a trainer mission for blackjacking worth trying: http://www.mindplaces.com/darkmod/fmdetails.php?id=19

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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You've lost me. Why would the mapper need to signal to the player that an enemy can be knocked out by something? It'd be pretty much the same as a black jack over the head, except possibly more effective if you pick up a larger object. If you push something that can't be lifted, the enemy could die. If you jump down on an enemy, you'd probably breaks it's neck. Surely the bone would buckle under 8kgs of weight, especially if he's not expecting it to happen.

 

I think this is a perfectly reasonable request... I'll put it in the 'Things that could be improved' thread.

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Demagogue meant that the mapper should tell the players that it is even possible, because every mapper would have to make it possible in his map until it is finally implemented, maybe...

But I see no reason why it shouldn´t be implemented, even in Thief you could hurt AI´s with that big hammers IIRC, but I´m not sure about killing/K.O.-ing... :unsure:

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Yeah. My point was just it's not a standard feature, but a mapper can rig a special situation right now with a KO stim on an object. But she/he needs to let the player know that it KOs, because otherwise the player will reasonably just assume the standard case. Now if you want it as a standard feature for all objects of a certain kind, then that's for the other thread. I'm just telling you it's possible now with some mapper hacking.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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  • 4 months later...

First, have you read the instructions on the wiki? There are certain conditions where backjacking will not work.

 

http://modetwo.net/d...ay#Blackjacking

 

Good luck trying to gauge "aiming at the head" when there's no crosshair.

 

And as for being "to close is" this is just stupid, in real life it would be easy to know whether or not your to close, and simply adjust your arm/body to compensate in a matter of a split second, but in a game its a bit more difficult to tell how close your arm is and where your hit is landing. Thus unnecessary.

 

and this part part annoys me the most...

 

3. Helmeted guards from behind when relaxed (helmeted guards cannot be knocked out when alert).

 

What bull, a blackjack to the back of the head, IS A BLACK JACK TO THE BACK OF HEADDDD, I don't care how alert they are...

 

Give me easy blackjacking!!

Edited by TheUnbeholden
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Give me easy blackjacking!!

 

As you spend time playing the game, you will definitely be able to gauge how close it too close...likewise with being able to determine where to hit the AI.

 

I think you need to relax and take some time to get used to how things work in TDM. TDM is Thief inspired, but it does not replicate it in every way. Demanding features 'you' think should be in the game certainly won't inspire anyone to help you.

 

As I said in the other thread, black jacking has already been relaxed quite a bit from its original version. The area the player must hit is more forgiving than it used to be. It's certainly not as hard as you're making it out to be, I don't know what you're doing to have it fail so often. :unsure:

 

I remember never being able to knock anyone out in the early days, but after the changes were made I rarely fail...and if I do, it's my own fault.

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As I said in the other thread, black jacking has already been relaxed quite a bit from its original version. The area the player must hit is more forgiving than it used to be. It's certainly not as hard as you're making it out to be, I don't know what you're doing to have it fail so often. :unsure:

 

Apart from TheUnbeholden's not-so-friendly tone I must agree with him. I have yet to manage to knock out a helmeted guard. However, the better option is always to avoid having to knock them out. TDM trained me the hard way to ghost each and any FM. Now I'm thankful for it.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Apart from TheUnbeholden's not-so-friendly tone I must agree with him. I have yet to manage to knock out a helmeted guard. However, the better option is always to avoid having to knock them out. TDM trained me the hard way to ghost each and any FM. Now I'm thankful for it.

 

 

ahhaa, its hard to tell what a persons tone is over text... its more like saying you can hear a smile. :)

 

But its pretty much frustration on my end if that came out in my text.

 

Seriously though, what makes the most sense to me, realism wise and for the sake of simplicity, aiming at a enemies general direction, while being behind them, with a blackjack raised to strike = KO

 

Anything else will require having to learn these special instances where blackjacking = no no, having it placed in the main tutorial level, and having to have a crosshair to so you can judge headshots....

 

The difficult part of blackjacking should only be successfully getting behind someone, and making sure no one is nearby apart from the person who's expecting a nice little bomp on the noggin.

Edited by TheUnbeholden
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I understand what you mean, but try to see it this way: BJ'ing someone is the very last resort when all other means (as in: sneaking) fail. You will notice that playing this way makes the gaming experience waaaaaaaay more intense!

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Seriously though, what makes the most sense to me, realism wise and for the sake of simplicity, aiming at a enemies general direction, while being behind them, with a blackjack raised to strike = KO

 

Realism -wise swinging a jackjack in the general direction of a person results in a KO? Hmm.. Right.. :wacko:

 

Blackjacking is supposed to be a dangerous task. Give it more practice and you'll get to appreciate it. If it is difficult, it is more rewarding to succeed in it.

 

Aim a bit above the head and slightly to the left, almost middle. Only try doing it to stationary guards.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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You hit them at the base of the neck. It works perfectly. As it should.

 

(I've said that about 4 times now in various threads:laugh:... I'm a little of the mind that it should be left for those who want to, to figure it out... but I'm also at other times wondering if it should be spelled out in a more prominent place as it seems to be one of those things that people need to be able to immediately grasp or they will reject TDM... which...)

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easiest knokouts are with doors that dont auto close, open door, climb on door, wait for guard to pass below, whak, unconcious guard.

you can also do the same with bunkbeds that are in shadow.

 

As if you miss, guard whirls around to find nothing there.

Edited by stumpy
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Realism -wise swinging a jackjack in the general direction of a person results in a KO? Hmm.. Right.. :wacko:

 

 

Yes. Because hitting a persons neck in real life is easy, but in a video game with no crosshair, its like a guessing game that punishes you for something out of your control, you don't know where the blackjack is landing. In real life you can easily gauge where your arm is swinging.

 

So realism wise, yes I'm right, successful blackjacks should be in the realm of 95%...

 

This is the biggest culprit to the unsuccessful blackjacks against helmeted guards, the other culprit is the hermet-guard being alerted, and thus being immune to blackjacks... If this requirement where to be removed, or at least adding a crosshair to the blackjack, then I would be ok with it. Till then I'll avoid blacking helmeted guards like the plague, I know that I shouldn't be blackjacking anyone, but I still like to do it from time to time.

 

Either add crosshair for blackjack, add option in the gameplay settings for "easy blackjacking" (your supposed to control the difficulty of the game remember?) or remove the requirement to aim at the base of the neck. Giving players the choice for difficulty is pretty much a win a win.... IMO

Edited by TheUnbeholden
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I don't know how often the topic with the crosshair has come up, but nothing has been agreed on, apparently. A CH would indeed make some things easier, f.e. trying to grab things. It can often be tedious, especially when time is pressing (as in: you have three seconds to grab something until a guard comes around a corner). Still, the almost non-existent GUI adds realism.

 

As another example for thins, look at Dead Space. There's no real GUI either.

 

 

 

 

(Do I make any sense? I just got up and need my coffee.)

 

 

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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being immune to blackjacks... If this requirement where to be removed, or at least adding a crosshair to the blackjack, then I would be ok with it.

 

Maybe to make it easier, we should have the computer automatically raise your blackjack when you're in range, so you just have to press the button to complete the swing. Thief players would love that.

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Blackjacking in TDM can be annoying. When you walk behind a sitting AI for example. You move forward untill your movement is blocked by a chair. You swing expecting the AI to be knocked out only to find out that you were to close. In most cases that means loading savegame.

It's only a model...

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I don't think it would hurt to at least review our current system to see if perhaps it does need to be made a tiny bit more forgiving. It shouldn't be made 'easy' but it should not be so challenging as to discourage black jacking completely.

 

Our current system doesn't really affect ghosters, so I'm not surprised that more casual play styles are having issues.

 

I volunteer to take a look at the current settings.

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Maybe to make it easier, we should have the computer automatically raise your blackjack when you're in range, so you just have to press the button to complete the swing. Thief players would love that.

 

oh yes indeed.:laugh:

 

... and add a crosshair to that breaking immersion reminding us every second "hey pal you're in a GAME!!" and I will stick to playing good ol' T2.

 

Blackjacking is absolutly fine as it is!

(and already had been made more easy since start of the mod)

 

TDM really shouldn't dumbed down to Console game practices.

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

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