Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Thief 4 is trash.


Mystry
 Share

Recommended Posts

I think the devs had started the discussion in a completely wrong way. Actually when reading this it sounds quite reasonable to me. This does not mean that it doesn't have negative aspects, but every gameplay decision has its pros and cons.

 

The problem is that they always talk about this aspect as a matter of immersion. But it has nothing to do with immersion. It's a simple gameplay mechanism.

 

They've introduced this swooping thingy and thought, "Hey, if you are in midst of a room you most certainly will swoop around, and if you stand in front of a crate you may wanna climb upon it but not swoop into it. So let's use the same key for both actions".

 

Actually, I'm perfectly fine with this argumentation if they had told so. Free jumping aslo has its downsides. Of course, you are more free to discover where the mappers actually wants you to climb up, but this can sometimes lead to the case that a geometry looks like it is climbable, but it isn't as it wasn't intented to be, and you fall and die half a dozen times before you recognize.

 

In addition, most thief players seem to prefer non-haunted missions, so missions that majorly takes place inside a mansion, castle or church or whatever. I mean, you don't jump around and climb in that places everywhere.

 

So as said, it's not bad per se to make such a decision. There where also no free jumping in Rainbow Six Vegas or Ravenshield (which is also a tactical game and therefore quite similar to the thief franchise), and I never though it would be non-immersive or whatever. I felt fine with it.

 

But what is important is, it has NOTHING to do with immersion. The game is not about a bunny. ;)

 

And yes, the way he started his argumentation is not very well-choosen. But I don't wanna know how impolite some of the forum posters over there were.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Free jumping aslo has its downsides. Of course, you are more free to discover where the mappers actually wants you to climb up,

 

It's not really about climbing where the mapper "wants" you to climb. It's about being able to do things the mapper never thought of. There are dozens of examples of places you might want to jump:

 

1. You might want to jump to intentionally alert an AI.

2. You might want to jump from one carpet to the next.

3. You might want to jump onto a moss patch

4. You might want to jump from one rope to another

5. You might want to jump off something and land in the water.

etc..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

First thoughts:

 

They spent how many thousands of dollars on replica bows and costumes...why are the recycling the same footage over and over again?

 

It's a reboot...why are they trying so hard to sound like a sequel? ("The city's changed...I've changed.")

 

Garrett seems to have absolutely no connection to what's going on in that trailer...it's as if his stealing shots were just interspersed into generic-sounding conflict that has nothing to do with him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, I hear you asking, what happens when you DO press the jump button, but there is nothing to jump on?

 

You SWOOP!

 

So if I try to jump where I'm not supposed to, the game will actually do something completely different from what I am trying ... For immersion? :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not really about climbing where the mapper "wants" you to climb. It's about being able to do things the mapper never thought of. There are dozens of examples of places you might want to jump:

 

1. You might want to jump to intentionally alert an AI.

2. You might want to jump from one carpet to the next.

3. You might want to jump onto a moss patch

4. You might want to jump from one rope to another

5. You might want to jump off something and land in the water.

etc..

Oops. :ph34r:

 

Sorry Obs - couldn't resist it. In general, you're probably right. :smile: But this would drive me potty.

I

jump

on

everything.

As said it has its pros and cons. I'm one of the persons who are really displeased with what he've heard from the new "game calling itself thief". I just wanted to present a different point of view. And I wanted to state that just because someone is argumenting in an impolite and not taking-all-arguments-ito-consideration way, it doesn't mean that what he says is complete bullshit.

 

I've also like jumping around and such, but I've also played games where you only could do this in certain situations, and it is not neccessarily bad. His argument of binding swoop and jump to one key is very reasonable to me.

 

As said every decision regarding gameplay has its pros and cons. But changes aren't neccessarily bad. I don't need 10 thief games that all play the same.

 

What displeases me are the desicions that seem to draw the game away from being a stealth game. quicktime-events, xp for killing people, etc.

 

The hud is another point, but doesn't make a game bad per se.

 

And they had quite a few good ideas, like that it takes some time to pickpocket someone.

 

We shouldn't forget that we are all big fans of the thief franchise, most of us may played the first two games shortly after they came out, as they were the only stealth games so far. For me, it was one of the first pc games I've played, thus having me influenced in my expectations on gaming in a very deep way.

 

However, such things make one subjective to such things. And as many thngs revealed displeased most of us, we may take upcoming news more negative as they really are.

 

Just saying :)

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I wanted to state that just because someone is argumenting in an impolite and not taking-all-arguments-ito-consideration way, it doesn't mean that what he says is complete bullshit.

 

Even if you take away the ridiculous straw-manning of his opposition, what arguments did he actually make for his position? All I saw was "IT'S AWESOME" and the completely bullshit argument about immersion. Everything else was just trying to argue that you won't notice. He didn't actually say why this is a GOOD change to make.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How can the developers possibly know every instance in which the players will want to jump. What if I want to jump over a stair railing and attack a guard. Where I begin my jump affects my arc and where I will land. Not being able to jump whenever, will give the player less freedom in ways that can't always be foreseen. There are too many variables for them to say that you can always jump when you "need" to jump.

Edited by SirGen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trailer was nice. Looked even more dunwall than the last one: rats, sickness, poor, same architecture.

 

I'll probably buy this game if it gets higher than 80 metascore and its price is ~5 euros. ;)

 

As for the contextual jump, I'm not condemning. Gotta see it first. It could work if done properly. For example, Hitman games did not need any jumping. The contextual balcony jump was good and perfectly enough.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This contextual movement has to limit leveldesign somewhat. I can picture a few scenarios where both actions, jumping and running forward, are possible. A window directly above a door, a hole in the ceiling or an arch like in the ones in the E3 demo. Maybe the system takes your viewing angle into account.

But I guess the maps will be relatively two dimensional because of that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if you take away the ridiculous straw-manning of his opposition, what arguments did he actually make for his position? All I saw was "IT'S AWESOME" and the completely bullshit argument about immersion. Everything else was just trying to argue that you won't notice. He didn't actually say why this is a GOOD change to make.

As said is argumentation is a bit strange and I don't wanna defend everything he says. But I think the core idea is that in situations were you mostly jump, like when climbing on something you still can do it, and in other situations were you will most certainly not do it, like in the midst of a room or so, the jump key is used for a different action which is quite similar, though, a fast switch of position.

 

In the end it is much about implementation. The question is, if this really does restrict the player in his actions (in regardance to the design of the missions of the game) or if it gives the player the feeling of beeing restricted.

Hitman is not a game about exploration, though.

This is not true. You always have to explore the map and the possibilities given to you to find a good way to take out your target. Of course, what you explore is different, and maybe even the amount of exploration is much smaller, but you definetely have to explore (or at least it would be a good advise).

 

I mean, I really, really don't expect the new thief to be a game that can challenge with the first two parts of the series or TDM, but I also don't think that the latter does or do everything perfectly. And some things might be working out good or not.

What if I want to jump over a stair railing and attack a guard.

For this purpose they implemented qte-insta-kill, and it was damned, too. (For a good reason, IMHO). I don't think that such behaviour has anything to do with stealth gameplay, so I don't mind if the devs wouldn't give me the possibility to do this.

 

But if you are after such things, I suggest playing AC ;)

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This nerd-rage over something that's in beta stages, seems like a kid who came straight from the YouTube comments, just to vent over things, he 'wants' to be wrong in order to complain. You might wanna take a second look at the videos and read a few interviews, before going nuts and contradicting your own ill-defined statements ;)

 

Edit: For a pre-alpha I think this looks VERY promising and can't wait to see the finished product :)

 

I feel like I saw a bunch of models we also have in TDM, vine-crates and a few loot items, or am I 'seein things' as well?

 

The minimal design is awesome and I hope you can turn it all the way down, to only highlighted objects and mission updates. The hud graphics aren't quite "Thief'ish", so I hope they'll tweak that to something that fits the rest of the atmosphere a bit more.

 

There needs to be more modern games, that doesn't baby sit the player to the point where he forgets to think on his own. The human mind is an amazing thing, and when people can make an amazing game, it's a shame if we don't get to spend any mental energy on unwrapping it, to fully appreciate the work done.

I hole hardheartedly agree and would add that if one can not point the objective perception of interpretation at ones self then where can anyone point it?

Laptop:Metabox P370SM3- Intel Core i7-4800MQ- 2x GTX780M SLI- 16G 1600Mhz- 500G Samsung mSata-1TB Hitachi HDD- 120Hz LG 1080p.Desktops:i75930k-2x GTX980 SLI-16G 2133Mhz-Evo120GSSD-Swift PG278Q1440p Gsync.Spare:AMD A10-7850K-APU-8G 1866Mhz-seagate 4TB-120G ssd. LoL Old:P75-1:1FSB-8M ram 512MB Maxtor HDD-1MB Cirrus Logic video chip-still got the parts somewhere?First PC-Tandy 512K Color computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thief 4 has been confirmed for shit. Its now up to TDM to be the real Thief successor.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67VurX81VI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdNzCNl5Q

 

I'm so fucking depressed after seeing these videos. My favorite activity has been taken over by retarded fratboys and feminists. All challenge is gone. Stealth is fucking dead, takedowns, getting fucking XP for shooting someone in the head, incredibly simplified ui and light gem for idiots, AI is shit and takes eternity to spot you. So fucking bad.

 

This game is garbage, and I'm so sad to see Looking Glass's memory dishonored (see what I did there) with this abomination.

 

Oh and its unmoddable, confirmed by devs. I bet it has dishonoreds problem in that all the toys and tools and xp upgrades and whatever the fuck are all aimed at killing people, which is useless in a stealth game.

 

This isn't a stealth game, its a killing game made for retard cod fanboys who just HAVE to see things die. This isn't Thief.

 

The fucking gold you steal isn't even used for anything. Theres no store where you buy equipment, you are just given a set of shit at the start of each 'mission'.

 

I'm so disappointed I'm at a loss for words.

I an 100%

Laptop:Metabox P370SM3- Intel Core i7-4800MQ- 2x GTX780M SLI- 16G 1600Mhz- 500G Samsung mSata-1TB Hitachi HDD- 120Hz LG 1080p.Desktops:i75930k-2x GTX980 SLI-16G 2133Mhz-Evo120GSSD-Swift PG278Q1440p Gsync.Spare:AMD A10-7850K-APU-8G 1866Mhz-seagate 4TB-120G ssd. LoL Old:P75-1:1FSB-8M ram 512MB Maxtor HDD-1MB Cirrus Logic video chip-still got the parts somewhere?First PC-Tandy 512K Color computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thief 4 has been confirmed for shit. Its now up to TDM to be the real Thief successor.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L67VurX81VI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqdNzCNl5Q

 

I'm so fucking depressed after seeing these videos. My favorite activity has been taken over by retarded fratboys and feminists. All challenge is gone. Stealth is fucking dead, takedowns, getting fucking XP for shooting someone in the head, incredibly simplified ui and light gem for idiots, AI is shit and takes eternity to spot you. So fucking bad.

 

This game is garbage, and I'm so sad to see Looking Glass's memory dishonored (see what I did there) with this abomination.

 

Oh and its unmoddable, confirmed by devs. I bet it has dishonoreds problem in that all the toys and tools and xp upgrades and whatever the fuck are all aimed at killing people, which is useless in a stealth game.

 

This isn't a stealth game, its a killing game made for retard cod fanboys who just HAVE to see things die. This isn't Thief.

 

The fucking gold you steal isn't even used for anything. Theres no store where you buy equipment, you are just given a set of shit at the start of each 'mission'.

 

I'm so disappointed I'm at a loss for words.

I am 100% in agreement in regards to Thief 4. Its now up to TDM to be the real Thief successor.

 

The corporate dogs will never understand the meaning of free and honest creativity. If only they knew the simple concept of assistance, Then at least someone would be more knowledgeable. The Dark Mod Project is supreme in all respects. If anyone wishes to question my objectiveness, Then so be it.

There can only be one answer, and that is a statement: Please question all answers and try to answer all questions as I do and we should, Always question that which remains understood!

Laptop:Metabox P370SM3- Intel Core i7-4800MQ- 2x GTX780M SLI- 16G 1600Mhz- 500G Samsung mSata-1TB Hitachi HDD- 120Hz LG 1080p.Desktops:i75930k-2x GTX980 SLI-16G 2133Mhz-Evo120GSSD-Swift PG278Q1440p Gsync.Spare:AMD A10-7850K-APU-8G 1866Mhz-seagate 4TB-120G ssd. LoL Old:P75-1:1FSB-8M ram 512MB Maxtor HDD-1MB Cirrus Logic video chip-still got the parts somewhere?First PC-Tandy 512K Color computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I NEED INSPIRATION AND AT THE END OF THIS!!!!!

I hope at least this will inspire someone to do some thing?

Hear some thing I made here and now. Soon right?:

Laptop:Metabox P370SM3- Intel Core i7-4800MQ- 2x GTX780M SLI- 16G 1600Mhz- 500G Samsung mSata-1TB Hitachi HDD- 120Hz LG 1080p.Desktops:i75930k-2x GTX980 SLI-16G 2133Mhz-Evo120GSSD-Swift PG278Q1440p Gsync.Spare:AMD A10-7850K-APU-8G 1866Mhz-seagate 4TB-120G ssd. LoL Old:P75-1:1FSB-8M ram 512MB Maxtor HDD-1MB Cirrus Logic video chip-still got the parts somewhere?First PC-Tandy 512K Color computer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Occupy Garrett 2014.

 

You can absolutely jump and move through the world fluidly and freely.

 

So which word got a new dictionary definition? Absolutely, fluidly, or freely? I'm guessing that if crate stacking, etc. is possible in T4 then the "contextual system" will let you jump or mantle them. Still, you should be allowed to jump near walls, fences, vines, etc., and off bridges or buildings, perhaps into some... swimmable water! Does the contextual system include jumping from carpet to carpet or onto a moss patch across the floor? How much context can you shove into a system before it becomes easier to simply... allow jumping. The swoop mentioned sounds like something that will be spammed more. I guess every situation in which you can jump or climb will come with an on-screen indicator. It's a great way to hold players' hands and prevent them from exploring, using ingenuity, checking out those vines creeping up the wall, etc.

 

Consider that this only has become an 'issue' on the forums here after someone quoted a snippet of a text interview. It was never brought up when you guys first saw the E3 gameplay footage. Nor was it ever brought up as an issue by any of the journalists who played the game - including the few more 'critical' reports. MT didn't even scream bloody murder or beg the team to change the feature after he played the game. Why? For 1 very simple reason: It's just not an issue. Nobody felt restricted. Nobody felt they were missing anything. Chances are when you're finally playing the game, neither will you!

 

Because gaming "journalists" know shit about games, can "report" accurately on carefully managed demos, and their rags aren't bought and paid for.

 

It cannot be spammed for a continual speed boost. It offers total freedom and mobility, completely aligned with the movement and grace of a master thief who makes his living by sneaking from shadow to shadow. Those hoping for Garrett the Master River Dancer will be disappointed, everyone else has nothing to worry about.

 

Thief of yore could be jump spammed to an extent, sure. Games like Morrowind and Oblivion rewarded you for jump spamming. But in TDM jumping is slower and spamming it accomplishes nothing. At least one other thing works against you when jumping: noise. Jump too much and you'll be noticed. Seems like something a team of amateur programmers could implement... I can't wait to see if our 2.00+ AI can beat up T4's AI.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

the one thing I noticed about the eidos community manager was that he was hired last year (2012), that's if it is a he, talks like a he, although might be a 15 year old he, with a playstation stuck up his bum, the way he talk's about people overreacting about the player not being able to jump when they want to and not when the game lets them comes across like he's an idiot. what happens if you want to jump on a table with the lights out to whack guards on the noggin. either jump isn't enabled on the tables or you can't jump that high.

What it there's a vent, the game knows you can't jump into the opening, but what stops the player from trying to jump into the vent, the game stops the player cos you can't jump and you probably can't stack crates, the older games he quotes as being out of date, they were only recently released and not out of date yet, the assassins creed game set in new england, there's nothing in that to stop you from jumping around, its very easy to climb up a tree, lot harder to get out of the top of one if you can't see the pile of leaves in the dark, and the game doesn't stop you from jumping in the wrong direction and miss the leaves completely. even though technically it would be impossible to fall over 40ft straight onto a pile of leaves with out breaking something.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thief of yore could be jump spammed to an extent, sure. Games like Morrowind and Oblivion rewarded you for jump spamming. But in TDM jumping is slower and spamming it accomplishes nothing. At least one other thing works against you when jumping: noise. Jump too much and you'll be noticed. Seems like something a team of amateur programmers could implement... I can't wait to see if our 2.00+ AI can beat up T4's AI.

 

Wrong wrong wrong. In TDM you can move absolutely silently by means of jumping while crouched; which is pretty funny and wasn't fixed yet on 1.8

 

 

As for the topic, this is obviously cover for some kind of programming or timetable incompetence. Didn't have time to make animations time variable? Didn't setup the sound propagation system yet? Have to release in 4 months or you're canceled? (probably the studio will die right afterwards since SquareEnix will require at least break even for survival - the rats have already jumped ship if you remember).

 

Who cares? Don't buy this crap.

Edited by i30817
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I frequently do a standing jump around a corner from guards to get their attention and then run off while they investigate. Running on hard surfaces does the same thing but sometimes you don't have the area to do that. Why grab the attention of guards this way?? ...cause the game allows you to do it, allows you to do things the way you want. It doesn't siphon your actions through a filter that says, "Nope! not in the game design, do it our way".

 

I can still adapt my playstyle and have for many other games but its just a bummer when you have to do this and can't be allowed the freedom to act as you want.

 

Oh well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


  • Recent Status Updates

    • jaxa

      Embracer Group is Buying Square Enix Montréal, Eidos, and Crystal Dynamics for “Only” 300 Million USD: https://wccftech.com/embracer-group-square-enix-montreal-eidos-crystal-dynamics/
      · 1 reply
    • duzenko

      Do we want fur in TDM? Like https://duzenko.github.io/webgl/
      · 6 replies
    • Epifire

      Sometimes life throws a curveball - other times it straight up tries to take you outta the game. Been one thing after another lately but I ain't goin without a fight!
      · 2 replies
    • duzenko

      My Uber rating (as a passenger) is 4.71. Is there still hope or should I just kill myself? What's yours?
      · 3 replies
    • kano

      Did I mention how absolutely grateful I am that TDM didn't get (and can never be) assimilated by a huge company like Microsoft, as is what happened to Minecraft?
      · 3 replies
×
×
  • Create New...