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Children in TDM


Morat
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We wish have a homosexual FM with gays and lesbians. LOL..

 

Pink arrowshafts, the gas arrows puts out a rainbow-colored cloud, the firearrow shows fireworks and glitter, and don't get me started on the shape of the blackjack... :ph34r:

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Hey I have a gay relationship in my FM.

I modeled it off of Rowena's tendency to have NPCs in secret relationships.

And I bet my gay relationship was more dramatic and tragic than the big majority of M/F relationships people throw into FMs. You even get to save one of them from petty gay-bashing by the police. But no pink arrows or rainbows. We're talking pirates and noblemen.

So pfffffttt... :P

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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In this homo mod all the guards flee when attacked because "fairies can't fight" and the goal is to alert all guards and make them all run and hide returning to their bunker. :-P

 

Talk about turning game mechanics upside down LOL.

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Personally, I don't object to neutral kids as back characters.

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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  • 1 year later...

I started my own thread about this and was pointed here. Since I did just bring the subject up today, and this thread appears to have a longer discussion about it, I guess I'll revive it and add my 2 cents?

 

The reason I'd like to see children in TDM is first of all more diversity and complexity, which is part of why I also suggested common pets a while ago. It would be fair if the player could find entire families inside houses that can be entered, which is an obvious expectation often broken by missions that let you do midnight break-ins. Another reason is that the story a mission is based on might include children as primary or secondary characters, especially those based on books and not written specifically for TDM... currently the author would have to change their story or make this part implicit, which kinda sucks.

 

Although it's not surprising, I find it saddening that many oppose this legitimate feature not because it would be bad, but because of personal feelings alone :angry: Especially considering that like any friendly NPC, children would not get hurt unless the player chooses to attack them... meaning that if you can't handle the idea, you simply don't shoot at any of the kids in the level, and nothing bad happens to them. The only emotional risk is if someone deliberately wants to troll the players, and programs some guards to attack and kill a kid... and people with mapping knowledge are typically sane and possess common sense, so it's unlikely. I have severe arachnophobia (fear of spiders) but was not once offended by the missions who threw giant spiders in my face at some point in the level, despite having to play 4 meters away from the screen and even so in severe discomfort.

 

Anyway, here's my suggestion for a quick and simple solution, which someone can perhaps try out: Take a normal NPC in the game, such as the villager or the lord, and copy the entity definition. Then simply change the size of the entity to something smaller, like say 75%. Next make the head a little larger than the body... since it's a separate object this is hopefully possible without breaking its animations. Lastly, if idTech 4 and the TDM code allow this, make a copy of the voice definitions, then set them to a slightly higher pitch or speed. That should be it... you just created a child NPC without having to use any new assets!

Edited by MirceaKitsune
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Requirements:

*New skeleton

*New model

*New head

*New vocal set

 

Benefits:

Civilian AI that is almost always sleeping during the night, and flees to the guard post. It is a lot of work for something we already have. But if someone want's to do it, go ahead.

 

But then again, we wouldn't even be the first one:

 

I actually played NMRH. The kid zombie is only another variety of opponent, which is more difficult to hit, has less hp and moves faster. Not much of a problem for me to dispatch them, but I can see the controversy.

 

In TDM, they would be live children instead of bloodthirsty zombies, so hurting them would certainly be a taboo. But this was already discussed in the past.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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in olden times children were considered as small adults and would wear the same clothes as adults but of a smaller size, its only relatively recently that children have been considered something different than small adults. thats why if you look at history and see that children were doing adult work a few hundred years ago, its because they wern't consider to be anything other than adults but of a smaller size.

Edited by stumpy
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Maybe just stick with teenagers? :rolleyes:

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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in olden times children were considered as small adults and would wear the same clothes as adults but of a smaller size, its only relatively recently that children have been considered something different than small adults. thats why if you look at history and see that children were doing adult work a few hundred years ago, its because they wern't consider to be anything other than adults but of a smaller size.

 

IMO That's because back then it was rare for people to live past 30 so when a child shown adult characteristics they were considered adults, a man at 14 were very often considered adult already. No wonder war and violence was prevalent on those days, man become more calm and less inclined for war after 30/40 years old, as always there's exceptions.

 

About the inclusion of children on TDM i'm really not against it, i'm old enough to know that i'm not hurting real children and also old enough to know that what i do in this game (or any game) i can't nor i have any interest to do on real life.

I must say i sometimes think the people not wanting or having very strong reactions to the depiction of children on games have themselves some latent problem, but i'm just speculating, you are free to not concur.

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Regarding the argument that "children sleep during the night anyway":

 

First of all, many TDM missions let the player break into houses to steal stuff or complete other objectives. This means that a child sleeping is an actual detail the player should expect to find! The two aren't contradictory at all, this is something the player can legitimately come across in the TDM universe.

 

Second, I think those children who aren't sleeping at night for various reasons can have unique purposes throughout missions. Considering that kids often have their own world and issues, you could get interesting clues or objectives from them. One idea: You are the thief about to break into a manor, but on the way a homeless little girl asks you to retrieve a doll she lost in the residence that she cares for a lot. I think many would agree such a side objective would spice up the mission and make it more pleasant and interesting.

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IMO That's because back then it was rare for people to live past 30 so when a child shown adult characteristics they were considered adults, a man at 14 were very often considered adult already. No wonder war and violence was prevalent on those days, man become more calm and less inclined for war after 30/40 years old, as always there's exceptions.

Like "people believed the Earth was flat", and the idea of ius primae noctis, that's a common misconception people have about the Middle Ages. The low average life expectancy you find in these estimates is due to exceptional child mortality, which messes with the data. Except for plagues, famines and prolonged warfare, people who survived childhood could usually expect to live to their fifties or sixties, and often more.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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With all respect, Yep religious books are hardly a trustworthy account of how long people live, is very easy to sugar coat the life expectancy and even deeds of the people you admire and revere.

 

Melan i have no doubt there was people in the middle ages that lived to 80 or even more, but those IMO were the exception and not the rule, yes child mortality was rampant but was also disease, the black plague for example killed millions, leper was also very common, you could also die with a simple cold and small pox and let's not forget war, that was unfortunately very common on those days as well , why, because of conquest, more land more power and more taxes, and let's not forget the will to spread the religious thought, this also leads to, because of superstition and religious fundamentalism you could also die easily by being accused of witchcraft, blasphemy, being against the holy book, being a unbeliever, etc etc.

The legal law was also very severe, you could easily die or lose members (leading to death by infection or by long lasting physical disabilities) by just stealing a apple, honor killings was also common on those days, who don't know the gentleman sword duels, what i'm saying with this is that, it was very easy to die back then and not reach more than 30 years old of age.

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it was very easy to die back then and not reach more than 30 years old of age.

 

Yes, good points. The average age of people you'd see on the street was a lot lower than now, and in most times and places you were considered to be adult after you hit puberty. A few jobs -- like abbot of a monastery -- had a minimum age of 40, but for the most part people were younger than they are now. It was common in the middle ages for hereditary lords to inherit in their 20s, and even appointed lords like bishops and chancellors were commonly aged 20+, for example. They probably average 55 now. The thing I was reacting to was a misinterpretation that you see all too often from writers -- even historians -- who should know better. They see the statistic that life expectancy was 40, which includes children, slaves, and migrants, and then they say that people expected to die at 40, or even that it was rare to see people over 50, which is plain wrong. People over 40 were rarer than now, but healthy people who weren't persecuted never expected to die in their 40s.

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With all respect, Yep religious books are hardly a trustworthy account of how long people live, is very easy to sugar coat the life expectancy and even deeds of the people you admire and revere.

 

Melan i have no doubt there was people in the middle ages that lived to 80 or even more, but those IMO were the exception and not the rule, yes child mortality was rampant but was also disease, the black plague for example killed millions, leper was also very common, you could also die with a simple cold and small pox and let's not forget war, that was unfortunately very common on those days as well , why, because of conquest, more land more power and more taxes, and let's not forget the will to spread the religious thought, this also leads to, because of superstition and religious fundamentalism you could also die easily by being accused of witchcraft, blasphemy, being against the holy book, being a unbeliever, etc etc.

The legal law was also very severe, you could easily die or lose members (leading to death by infection or by long lasting physical disabilities) by just stealing a apple, honor killings was also common on those days, who don't know the gentleman sword duels, what i'm saying with this is that, it was very easy to die back then and not reach more than 30 years old of age.

 

Chance to die because of war was far higher in 20th century than it was in middle ages...

All there rest - yes. With not so much medical knowledge people could die because of different diseases for which you get simple medicine now or vaccine. There was also hunger and mortality at birth. But there are people who never see doctor even now. Or maybe when they are very old... That kind of people could live to very high age even in middle ages for example Michelangelo died when he was 88.

 

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Yes, good points. The average age of people you'd see on the street was a lot lower than now, and in most times and places you were considered to be adult after you hit puberty. A few jobs -- like abbot of a monastery -- had a minimum age of 40, but for the most part people were younger than they are now. It was common in the middle ages for hereditary lords to inherit in their 20s, and even appointed lords like bishops and chancellors were commonly aged 20+, for example. They probably average 55 now. The thing I was reacting to was a misinterpretation that you see all too often from writers -- even historians -- who should know better. They see the statistic that life expectancy was 40, which includes children, slaves, and migrants, and then they say that people expected to die at 40, or even that it was rare to see people over 50, which is plain wrong. People over 40 were rarer than now, but healthy people who weren't persecuted never expected to die in their 40s.

There was much buying a position and that is why there were bishops in their twenties. Rich families bought them position with "little" donations to right people.

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