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Cynical

Blackjacking. What the hell.

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Not deleting the quotation setup.

I know about that and don't do it. Still the formatting often changes just when deleting large sections of a quote...

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Zombies and Revenants in TDM don't really work like Zombies and Haunts in Thief 1 at all, though.

 

Right. File that under "TDM is not Thief".

 

Haunts in Thief 1 are actually more fragile and easier to kill than regular guards are

 

 

Where are you getting this from? According to the Thief wiki, Haunts and Hammers both have 15 HP. Hammerites flee at 3 HP while Haunts don't flee at all. Hammerites do slightly more damage (2-8 vs 2-6), but Haunts can attack much faster: "even though they cause normal sword damage, they can land 2-3 strikes in a second."

 

But even if you were correct, so what? All AI have different variables that describe their behaviour (speed, HP, damage, etc), and the Haunts have different values than Hammerites, just as revenants have different values than Builders.

 

 

That the undead, particularly Revenants, behave roughly like human guard re-skins is a major flaw.

 

 

So Haunts in Thief are awesome and amazing because they (according to you) have less HP than Hammerites and have "weird vulnerabilities" that make them easier to kill (like holy water). But in TDM, where the revenants have MORE HP than other AI and weird vulnerabilities to holy water...that's a "major flaw".

 

Right, I got it now. :rolleyes:

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Right. File that under "TDM is not Thief".

If you had read what I was responding to, I was responding to someone saying that TDM undead worked mostly like T1 undead. Which, I guess we agree, isn't the case.

 

 

So Haunts in Thief are awesome and amazing because they (according to you) have less HP than Hammerites and have "weird vulnerabilities" that make them easier to kill (like holy water). But in TDM, where the revenants have MORE HP than other AI and weird vulnerabilities to holy water...that's a "major flaw".

Yes, because the way you handle them if (or when) you get detected is different. In T1, you don't treat Haunts the same way you do regular guards after being detected; you kill Haunts, because they're easy to kill (btw, you're forgetting flashbombs as a damage source on them -- one flashbomb and one slash usually kills a Haunt), and you hide from guards. In TDM, you hide from both (or, more likely against Revenants, reload your game).

 

Likewise with Zombies. In TDM, you just sit in a shadow and wait for them to walk by, like an elite guard. In T1, when they get close, you move (and likely run), no matter how nice of a shadow you find yourself in.

 

The net effect of this is that undead levels in TDM are basically just palette-swapped guard levels, while undead levels in T1 actually play differently. It's a good thing that levels with drastically different themes play differently.

Edited by Cynical

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[...]

Likewise with Zombies. In TDM, you just sit in a shadow and wait for them to walk by, like an elite guard. In T1, when they get close, you move (and likely run), no matter how nice of a shadow you find yourself in.

[...]

 

I am not sure we played the same Thief 1. I never had a big problem hiding from zombies - if I wanted to. The big difference to human guards for me were a few things, but hideability was not among them:

 

-) They dropped, but were not entirely dead, they would rise again

-) They were slow and could easily be outmanouvered

-) Not really exactly bound to the enemy: You were allowed to kill them on expert. And since they were no humans, I did. They hindered me in exploring so much. I dropped them where I could, if I had a chance permanently.

 

What changed in TDM a bit was their vulnerabilities. They are hard to drop with a sword. After my first try I thought its not even possible. To me that really changed how to approach them, but they still had a comparable scarity

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[TDM zombies] are hard to drop with a sword. After my first try I thought its not even possible.

If you have room to manoeuvre and aren't nastily outnumbered, it's easy once you learn the rhythm of stepping into their range then straight back out again, then after they lunge moving forward to strike, then back again, and repeating. (Low light makes it harder to judge, of course.)


Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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Yes, because the way you handle them if (or when) you get detected is different. In T1, you don't treat Haunts the same way you do regular guards after being detected; you kill Haunts, because they're easy to kill (btw, you're forgetting flashbombs as a damage source on them -- one flashbomb and one slash usually kills a Haunt), and you hide from guards. In TDM, you hide from both (or, more likely against Revenants, reload your game).

 

You're moving the goalposts. Just because you treat them differently doesn't mean they are actually different.

 

Not only that, but the Thief wiki completely disagrees with your assessment that they're "easy to kill":

 

"When Haunts are alerted they become very difficult to defeat..."

"The general problem with Haunts is their battle skills. They move stunningly fast...."

 

 

You're taking your subjective responses and assuming they're universal. Not everyone reacts to the AI the way you describe. When I played Thief, I didn't treat Haunts or Hammerites significantly different--I tried to hide from both of them, and if I failed I might try to fight or I might try to get away. If anything I might burn more tools to take Haunts out at a distance because they were frightening.

 

I treat revenants and guards in equally similar ways in TDM--I generally hid from both. When caught by a guard, I'll drop a flashbomb and run. Revenants need different strategies since flashbombs don't work on them. As in Thief, I'll often try to take them out from a distance, or just stay out of their way.

I am not sure we played the same Thief 1. I never had a big problem hiding from zombies - if I wanted to.

 

I don't remember that either. And the wiki says nothing about zombies being able to see in the dark, and instead says: "sneaking by them is easier than sneaking by basically any other enemy". (which, for the record, is also true in TDM--zombies don't see very well).

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You're moving the goalposts. Just because you treat them differently doesn't mean they are actually different.

You have the logic backwards here. I treat them differently because they are different; the examples of me treating them differently was used to explain the "good-ness" of variety in enemies.

 

(The Thief wiki is wrong about the ease of killing Haunts -- they're definitely easier than regular Hammers, for a lot of reasons. Yes, they're faster. They also do less damage, have a shorter reach [and it doesn't look like their combat AI compensates for this, so if you know how to space yourself, it's easy to get them to savagely slash the air in front of you], and take damage from flash bombs. This is all quite fortunate, since you can't really run from them like you can guards, because of their faster footspeed.)

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Springs why are you bothering? We get one of these "this isn't the same as Thief" threads every couple of months, and we never succeed in changing someone's mind. Why torture yourself? They are a massive minority and not worth expending this much time on. Your time is much more precious and best used for constructive things. :)

Haters gonna hate, to them I say we have made something incredible here and to your minuscule complaints, I say; meh

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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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What AH said.

 

My recollection from years back is that the zombies were similar to guards in T1 in many ways. They could not see in the dark, they could not be killed permanently, they were slower. TDM zombies work in a similar way, but with some differences (can be killed, feels tougher).

 

To confirm who is right and who is wrong would require us to study the Thief AI sourcecode or do some well planned experiments. Who's gonna bother?

 

The benefits of finding the truth are negligible as well: as we know, nobody is ever gonna change their views based on an Internet discussion anyways. Time is precious and could be used in a more productive (and fun!) way.


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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For what it's worth, I've played the Thief games a lot but I'm a newb to TDM and have to say I find blackjacking very similar and not had any real issues in fact sometimes it's easier as there seems to be more arm/blackjack reach, or maybe it's because I'm so damn good :P

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or maybe it's because I'm so damn good :P

 

Probably. I always had problems with blackjacking in TDM, from the very beginning. Even after watching all those blackjack tutorials, and having been told how to do it. Really tried everything, aiming high, aiming low, aiming for the neck, tried to change the distance, no luck. It sometimes works, it sometimes does not. Well, the frequency that this topic shows up tells me that i'm NOT alone with the issue. Some devs take note of it, and try to figure out what the problem is, and what they can do to improve it, some just stand boneheaded on their opinion that it's good and it needs no change. Fair enough.

 

It probably also has to do with how you approach the game. For some people it's fun that random things occur, and it makes playing the missions exciting, so when they miss a blackjack, it adds to their experience. For me, a blackjack has to work 100% of the times, or it just kills it for me. When i alert an A.I., which might lead to other A.I.'s alerted just because the blackjacking mechanic is difficult to get, and i only manage to blackjack properly every 2nd time, it sorta kills it for me.

Edited by chakkman

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Well, the youtuber in the "In the News" thread replied in his video comments that he didn't want the hearing and sight sensitivity lowered

so he isn't even trying the options on offer.

 

That said, there's probably something to be said for offering a slider or toggle to expand the blackjack hitbox.

 

Also, humans do tend to notice things in-front of them more than behind them so perhaps there is some merit to the argument that

the AI should be less sensitive to sounds from behind (if that isn't already implemented) and a difficulty option for that would help too.

 

As I can tell, the gameplay focus here is more around ghosting so there's a reluctance from both the team "and community" to offer

options that discourage ghosting in favor of KO'ing the map clear.

 

The sad thing is. The Dark Mod is an "Open Source Project", if there are so many folks vocal about the Blackjack difficulty why hasn't one

coder stepped forward to offer a fork version with easier Blackjacking?

 

Nope, let's just hurl negativity at the team for sticking to their vision instead. That wasn't directed at you particularly chakkman but it's something

that bothers me. There could be 30 or 40 different forks of TDM out there. There could be a TDM where all the AI models are replaced with anthropomorphic cats.

...but nobody is taking advantage of this possibility.

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Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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I'm not sure the problem is simply that blackjacking can be difficult; it's that some players find blackjacking unreliable. That is, there's a missing sense of any deterministic, learnable connection between input and what happens on the screen. Just enlarging the hitbox doesn't diagnose or solve that problem. (My hunch is that maybe framerate drops are involved somewhere - I've noticed that when I get a surprise blackjack failure I often notice jerky movement at the same time, possibly affecting my judgment of where to swing - but that's just my hunch and my computer.)


Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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Probably. I always had problems with blackjacking in TDM, from the very beginning. Even after watching all those blackjack tutorials, and having been told how to do it. Really tried everything, aiming high, aiming low, aiming for the neck, tried to change the distance, no luck. It sometimes works, it sometimes does not. Well, the frequency that this topic shows up tells me that i'm NOT alone with the issue. Some devs take note of it, and try to figure out what the problem is, and what they can do to improve it, some just stand boneheaded on their opinion that it's good and it needs no change. Fair enough.

 

It probably also has to do with how you approach the game. For some people it's fun that random things occur, and it makes playing the missions exciting, so when they miss a blackjack, it adds to their experience. For me, a blackjack has to work 100% of the times, or it just kills it for me. When i alert an A.I., which might lead to other A.I.'s alerted just because the blackjacking mechanic is difficult to get, and i only manage to blackjack properly every 2nd time, it sorta kills it for me.

 

Did you watch the one I made for Fen?

 

 

He's much better now.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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There could be 30 or 40 different forks of TDM out there. There could be a TDM where all the AI models are replaced with anthropomorphic cats.

 

 

 

 

What is this fork and is it difficult to setup for coding stuff noobs? Will others be able to play this if I create my own fork?

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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@ AluminiumHaste: That's the video i watched. What i've taken from it is not to aim too high definitely. I still miss though. And what i totally missed, is that the AI is even able to hear you draw your blackjack. But notice how many "Don't do this..." are described in your video? I mean how are people supposed to know all that. They have to experience it from playing. And how many blackjack do you have to execute to know, and get all that stuff. And some things, you simply won't get through playing alone. It's too complicated IMO. Maybe, if noone wants to change the blackjacking, it should at least be described the way you described it in the video in the training mission. If that's even possible. But people who come from Thief will only know that in the Original Thief, the blackjacking worked like this: I step up to an A.I., i blackjack him, done. As you kknow, you could even run towards an A.I. and blackjack him, np. From behind, from the side, even facing it. That's quite a step to TDM where you're not supposed to do this, that, and what not. But that's actually another, general issue i have with TDM, the fact that it's simply very hard. Won't be getting into detail with that though, but it surely also has to do with this thing, that the A.I. is able to notice every blip the player makes.

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. And what i totally missed, is that the AI is even able to hear you draw your blackjack

 

 

No they can't.

 

As you kknow, you could even run towards an A.I. and blackjack him, np

 

 

I always thought that was a silly part of Thief. But if you want it, you can have it. Just set the Hearing slider to Nearly Deaf.

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That said, there's probably something to be said for offering a slider or toggle to expand the blackjack hitbox.

 

The blackjack hitbox is already pretty wide to offer some forgiveness. It's not like it's a slim thing the size of the blackjack. After all the fixes and changes made, if people are still having that much trouble then they need to adjust the AI settings.

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What is this fork and is it difficult to setup for coding stuff noobs? Will others be able to play this if I create my own fork?

A fork is when you change the sourcecode and compile your own exe file via Visual C++. Others can play with it by just dropping the new exe file in their folder and possibly any new files it depends on.

 

Even aside from sharing, it's a fun thing to do just for yourself, to try weird experiments for the hell of it. You learn by doing.

 

If you're curious, the first thing you want to learn is how to compile the sourcecode and run the game off that. The wiki explains it. Then you can start experimenting with changes.


What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Visual C++ oh well that sounds like it's nothing for me! But thank you for the explanation anyways :blush:


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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A fork could even consist of modified script files or modified textures, models, or shaders.

 

Any alternate version can be considered a fork as long as you maintain it as a distinct edition.

 

For example, someone could be crazy and replace all textures with 4096x4096 versions and call their fork "The Dark Mod HD"

and only GTX 980Ti owners could play it. (etc)


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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@Toni, But for the record, you don't have to know too much. Eg for compiling, there's a list of instructions on the wiki you follow verbatim. No cleverness necessary. And for code changes, nobody knows it at first. The code has comments to say what it's doing. But you only really learn it when you just start changing things and see what happens.

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I always thought that was a silly part of Thief. But if you want it, you can have it. Just set the Hearing slider to Nearly Deaf.

 

 

 

Not saying that it's a desirable thing, but if you want to argue with realism, i'd say it's definitely possible to run towards someone, and knocking him out without him even having the chance to turn around. In real life, no guard would be that alerted the whole day long that you wouldn't be able to do that. But then, it isn't about total realism, so that's not very relevant, rather a gameplay decision.

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@Toni, [...] No cleverness necessary.

Haha THAT is what I wanted to hear! :rolleyes::laugh:

Thank you for the explanations guys, so I visited the wiki, but when I try to click the SVN link, it tells me to log in. So I guess you first need access to the SVN to be able to make a fork? You can find the link under

Get the sources

    Download as a package: http://www.thedarkmod.com/downloads/
    Get the latest sources directly from SVN: https://svn.thedarkmod.com/svn/darkmod_src/trunk 

Be warned though that (unless you're a team member and working on the SVN asset base) these sources might be incompatible with your local darkmod installation. The team cannot and will not support you in case you're running into troubles trying to get it to run. 

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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