Can every1 pls update his FM with a saveroom possibility on hardmode like in the Kingsals latest FM?

[peter_spy]

13 minutes ago, esme said:

Do you seriously think that's going to change anyone's mind or give your opinion any more weight ?

No, not anymore, since multiple people were trying to explain the same thing with different wording, and most of the responses were like: "IM NOT LISTENING TO YOU, COVERING MY EARS, LALALA, STOP TAKING MY FREEDOM!"

Sorry, but this is just begging to poke fun at.

And your response shows that you either still don't understand the topic, or don't really want to understand it. All you seem to be interested in is your particular needs only. To the point that you are, again, protesting against an optional, experimental mode that was inspired by other games. Something that you probably won't play, but for some reason can't stand the thought that author might include in their mission. This is how your response looks like. Do you realize how silly it looks?

[datiswous]

Just wondering, could you add the save room function as an inventory object you can buy at mission start? So when buy it for zero money (or it is already in your inventory and you can remove it in the shop) at that moment the save restriction is aplied. Then you have a script that checks if you have the inventory item and if so aplies the restrictions. This way the difficulty system is left untouched and you can still have 3 seperate difficulties.

[AluminumHaste]

9 minutes ago, datiswous said:

Just wondering, could you add the save room function as an inventory object you can buy at mission start? So when buy it for zero money (or it is already in your inventory and you can remove it in the shop) at that moment the save restriction is aplied. Then you have a script that checks if you have the inventory item and if so aplies the restrictions. This way the difficulty system is left untouched and you can still have 3 seperate difficulties.

Or even the opposite, have an item in the store that you can buy for 0 gold that disables save restrictions for those of us who love to play missions, but hate the grind.

[esme]

6 minutes ago, Dragofer said:

This part has me thinking there's a misunderstanding. FMs that offer "save room" modes will also offer regular modes with unrestricted saving that you can choose instead. Is your argument that you only want to play a mission on Expert difficulty, which is probably going to be the difficulty that would have the restricted saves? The technical implementation of new gameplay modes can probably be improved so that it doesn't need to use up a difficulty slot.

As for mapper time investment - some players enjoy this mode, and some more players would enjoy this mode but might just never try it without a mission that's designed for it. I think it's good to cater to a variety of playstyles in the mission catalogue. Thief FMs intentionally change up gameplay all the time.

I made the point in another thread

How much effort will mission authors expend on making a mission that plays well with a standard save feature & for at least one difficulty setting uses a save room type feature, what other gameplay features won't be implemented or probably won't be thought of because the author spends their time implementing both systems, what's the trade off ?

And the other point, according to the poll, somewhere between a quarter & a third of players probably aren't going to bother playing a restricted save level so all that effort will be wasted for them. How will the author respond, put extra goodies in the restricted save level to encourage people to play it ? have sections of the mission unavailable unless you play it with restricted saves ?

Why not concentrate on innovating things that increase the fun & the gameplay rather than taking away a non gameplay mechanism we've had for 20 years, basically for the reason that "we've had it for 20 years & all these other games force you to do this & isn't that great" well yeah, why not go play one of those games then ? why mess with this one ?

[peter_spy]

You are still playing the same broken record. Authors will add features because they'd like to, not because they have to. They will sacrifice whatever they deem unimportant for it. That's not your concern, it's their personal decision. It's funny that one of the arguments for altering the saving system was that authors get too controlling – again, do you realize how controlling your post sounds like?

[Amadeus]

34 minutes ago, esme said:

Why not concentrate on innovating things that increase the fun & the gameplay r

I think you are failing to realize that this aspect could be FUN for other players and other mappers. I personally find the idea of save rooms fun for certain types of FMs. Save rooms, in my opinion, are appropriate for FMs like Hazard Pay. However, save rooms would be horrific for FMs like Penny Dreadful 3, or most others even. But at the end of the day, you don't need to play those unique difficulty settings in the FM if you don't want to. On that same token, mappers don't need to adhere to every player's whim or desire. If a mapper wants to break things up and change things that is their.... er.... "freedom" to do so

Edited February 4, 2022 by Amadeus

[esme]

15 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

No, not anymore, since multiple people were trying to explain the same thing with different wording, and most of the responses were like: "IM NOT LISTENING TO YOU, COVERING MY EARS, LALALA, STOP TAKING MY FREEDOM!"

Sorry, but this is just begging to poke fun at.

And your response shows that you either still don't understand the topic, or don't really want to understand it. All you seem to be interested in is your particular needs only. To the point that you are, again, protesting against an optional, experimental mode that was inspired by other games. Something that you probably won't play, but for some reason can't stand the thought that author might include in their mission. This is how your response looks like. Do you realize how silly it looks?

And there we go again with the belittling "your response shows that you either still don't understand the topic, or don't really want to understand it" well I do understand the topic if I want to play games with restricted saves I can throw a dart blindfold & play the one I hit

And I just made the point elsewhere so I'll make it here too

What's the trade off for this optional & experimental feature, how much effort will an author expend making a mission that plays well with the existing save function & also plays well with a restricted save function ?

What will they miss out, what won't get added because they're busy implementing both systems ?

All of these intangibles will remain so because you want to crowbar a mechanism from other game systems into this one

Again, add something fun or something useful, don't do things just to frustrate the player

And the other point going off the poll, which I know only has 28 responses, between a quarter & a third of players probably won't bother with that level so all that work will be wasted for them

And yes I'm interested in my particular needs just like you are

[datiswous]

3 minutes ago, esme said:

what other gameplay features won't be implemented or probably won't be thought of because the author spends their time implementing both systems, what's the trade off ?

I think if a mission author is really motivated to add such a feature to their mission and a minority of players likes it, it should not be blocked or discouraged, but the mecahanic should be helped implemented without ruining the core gameplay of tdm.

Kingsal was already talking about this in 2017:

 

[esme]

6 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

You are still playing the same broken record. Authors will add features because they'd like to, not because they have to. They will sacrifice whatever they deem unimportant for it. That's not your concern, it's their personal decision. It's funny that one of the arguments for altering the saving system was that authors get too controlling – again, do you realize how controlling your post sounds like?

You're lecturing me on "controlling"

Have a read back through your previous posts please

And once again it's a players personal decision to play a particular game, and that's not the authors concern, I keep saying you make what you want, but I don't have to play it

To paraphrase, "You can lead the player to a game, but you can't make them play it"

Yeah my broken record is the other side of yours

[peter_spy]

1 minute ago, esme said:

And yes I'm interested in my particular needs just like you are

Hell no, I like games doing weird and experimental stuff, and I don't mind plenty of challenge modes for all the different groups of players. I play most games on easy because my time for playing is limited, but I don't mind all the crazy options in hardcore survival modes, Ironman or time modes for speed-runners. I love diversity and I respect tradition, but I have no problems with questioning it, if it takes me somewhere interesting.

[peter_spy]

6 minutes ago, esme said:

And once again it's a players personal decision to play a particular game, and that's not the authors concern, I keep saying you make what you want, but I don't have to play it

And that's okay, I bet most authors won't care, as they will be busy engaging with players that do want to play such missions. It's you who are making it sound like as it was one of the most serious things in the world for some reason.

Also, since you've been repeating the same stuff over and over again, and now you're parroting my sentences, it means you've run out of arguments. I'm out too, no point in wasting the forum space.

[esme]

6 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

Hell no, I like games doing weird and experimental stuff, and I don't mind plenty of challenge modes for all the different groups of players. I play most games on easy because my time for playing is limited, but I don't mind all the crazy options in hardcore survival modes, Ironman or time modes for speed-runners. I love diversity and I respect tradition, but I have no problems with questioning it, if it takes me somewhere interesting.

Good for you

Question: have I said don't implement this ?

I'll answer for you, NO I havent

I've said you make whatever mission you like, but if it has this feature I won't play it & if it's on a particular difficulty I won't play that difficulty

And considering it's already in the game, protesting it's implementation is a bit redundant

So please make whatever weird & experimental missions you like, I'll still be using my standard metric of "Am I having fun?" when I play & if I'm not then I'll stop

Are you OK with that ? or is there something else you want to try & make me do ?

[esme]

1 minute ago, peter_spy said:

And that's okay, I bet most authors won't care, as they will be busy engaging with players that do want to play such missions. It's you who are making it sound like as it was one of the most serious things in the world for some reason.

Also, since you've been repeating the same stuff over and over again, and now you're parroting my sentences, it means you've run out of arguments. I'm out too, no point in wasting the forum space.

And again with belittling, you just can't help it can you

But fair enough we can disagree on this, I've stated my position & you've stated yours

[esme]

32 minutes ago, datiswous said:

I think if a mission author is really motivated to add such a feature to their mission and a minority of players likes it, it should not be blocked or discouraged, but the mecahanic should be helped implemented without ruining the core gameplay of tdm.

Kingsal was already talking about this in 2017:

 

I agree mission authors should make the mission they want to, but if you're catering for two different save systems there's a tradeoff as Kingsal also pointed out

On 2/1/2022 at 5:36 PM, kingsal said:

Yeah I would recommend being very careful trying to retroactively fit save rooms into a mission.  I designed Hazard around the mechanic and even then its hard to balance it out.
 

Having it on Expert seems fair,  but for larger missions it would need to be accompanied with auto saves or other ways of saving.  Also things like mandatory jumps, rope arrow mistakes, and deadly traps are brutal.  

Anyways, I would encourage authors to try it but only if it works for their mission and they’re willing to do more testing than usual. If balanced well, I think it can be really fun for players looking to do a challenge run. 

 

[kingsal]

I can't really think of good reasons why an author would or wouldn't use a modified save system. It all depends on their intent and their mission. 

Maybe after the dust settles a bit and 2.10 is out, I'll do a little write up on what I learned and what my intentions were with Hazard Pay. Which funny enough has a lot more to do with zombies than save rooms  .

[stumpy]

If you are using all three dificulties to change the difficulties of puzzles in a puzzle based mission does the safe room method mess up the difficulties to 2 dificulties, or is this just a cvar setting and can be safely ignored. And don't edit my maps to add safe save rooms.

[nbohr1more]

1 hour ago, stumpy said:

If you are using all three dificulties to change the difficulties of puzzles in a puzzle based mission does the safe room method mess up the difficulties to 2 dificulties, or is this just a cvar setting and can be safely ignored. And don't edit my maps to add safe save rooms.

https://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Altering_the_savegame_behaviour_of_TDM

It's controlled via an entity so you can isolate it to a specific difficulty.

The TDM team will never modify any existing missions to incorporate this option.

[Obsttorte]

On 1/30/2022 at 10:23 PM, nbohr1more said:

@Obsttorte was the one who pushed for limited saves for things like this.

This is actually not true. The reason I wanted to implement this was to allow mappers to modify the gameplay in a way that causes players to actually risk something and for different kinds of overall gameplay. As I had tried to explain back in the uproaring discussion as you named it was that there was no intention to use this as a method to increase difficulty, as there were already other means to achieve this. So although using this will increase the difficulty, mappers can always outweight this by reducing the difficulty via other aspects (ai sensibility, lighting, equipment et al).

 

Unfortunately this wasn't understood back in the discussion with the team members nor later on when discussing it with mission authors, as your comment illustrates. Dunno if this is some sort of language barrier or whether the opposition to ideas differing from the original gameplay caused this confusion.