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demagogue
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Also, when I first started working with TDM, I was very concerned about all the warning messages. Now, I'm more laissez faire (or maybe just fairly lazy). This is just an FM I'm building, not the James Webb telescope.

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7 hours ago, Dragofer said:
  1. We might have been reading past each other quite a bit here / peculiarities of the English language (i.e. I also mentioned using the security camera method). Well the main thing is something comes out of it.
  2. Btw joebarnin said he also tried the AIUse flag + inactive visual stim method but it didn't work for him on a func_fracture, only on a func_static.
  1. Indeed. And yes, I noticed that. I wasn't offended, though, if that what it reads like, and didn't meant to offend you. :)
  2. There is a code change involved here. There is an additional flag in the code of the entity base class that I have added to the brittle fracture class (used by func_fracture). So it will work in 2.11

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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5 hours ago, Geep said:

Entity 0 and worldspawn are the same thing. More exactly, in the .map file, all worldspawn brushes and patches are listed anonymously under entity 0.

Also, I don't know if this is relevant to your DR Default issue, but if you have your work organized by projects in <FM> folders, and you have created custom textures (or other custom assets), you have to make sure you tell DR which project to use currently. Otherwise, textures will appear missing in DR.

Yes, I know what entity 0 is. That's why I brought up worldspawn to begin with.

You know, you might be on to something with the "telling which project to use" solution, because I'm getting such a console message too, that it's unable to locate the current FM path. Thank you. I'll look into how to fix that.

 

5 hours ago, Geep said:

Also, when I first started working with TDM, I was very concerned about all the warning messages. Now, I'm more laissez faire (or maybe just fairly lazy). This is just an FM I'm building, not the James Webb telescope.

Yes, this is what unfixed errors ultimately lead to: User demoralization. Users have no choice but to lower their standards, and think less of the program. They see it as inevitable, and this is a view that is also pushed onto the user class by these devs.

...but the rude reality of it is, that it's just a matter of incompetence and laziness, why these errors were not fixed a long time ago. These are obviously the best people we've got, working in their spare time, but they could be doing a better job if they just cared a bit more. Hold these people to a higher standard, and hopefully they'll begin to hold themselves to a higher standard as well. The console can be completely error free, and I'll do my best to keep it as error free as possible on my end.

 

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1 hour ago, Nort said:

that it's just a matter of incompetence and laziness, why these errors were not fixed a long time ago.

Professional games come with hundreds of console errors, actually, so it's hardly a result of incompetence but rather a constant byproduct of a large group of people working on a project over several years. You'd need dedicated people just for finding and eliminating them, which is unlikely to happen as most of them (i.e. redefinitions, undefined materials replaced by a skin, missing specular stage) have little if any significance to the user and therefore arent picked up on during testing.

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@DragoferNo, no, no, it is our incompetence and lazyness. I am incompetent and lazy, you are incompetent and lazy, everyone around here is incompetent and lazy ... except Nort, he is a god.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Just now, Dragofer said:

Professional games come with hundreds of console errors, actually, so it's hardly a result of incompetence but rather a constant byproduct of a large group of people working on a project over several years. You'd need dedicated people just for finding and eliminating them, which is unlikely to happen as most of them (i.e. redefinitions, undefined materials replaced by a skin, missing specular stage) have little if any significance to the end user.

Part of a basic developer workflow, is to do testruns before you upload a commit. Especially when you do things like strip an entire model (like the female pagan), or several shaders (when you changed models for the wench and the beggar), you don't just rip them out of there, without any respect for their use. You claim that you're not doing that, but you very much are. This is what you've accused me of doing, when all I've done is fixed your problems. ...because you are holding different people to different standards.

...and the result of the lack of prooftesting, is tiny little errors, which will gradually degrade both end-user experience (in the form of missing shaders on models, and idle animations producing no sounds), and developer workflow. ...and once you have enough errors that you've swept under the rug in this manner, then development will grind to a halt, because developers won't be able to wrap their heads around what shader is used for what purpose anymore.

...and after that we'll get no more AI models, because nobody is willing to model them anymore.

...and it all starts with you doing testruns and checking the console. That's your basic responsibility as a developer.

 

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9 minutes ago, Dragofer said:

Right, incompetence and lazy.... I am incompetence and lazy.... I am incompetence...and lazy

...and add "immature" to that, I guess. I'm asking for basic quality control, and making sure that stuff works. Stop crying over it.

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Just now, Obsttorte said:

😭

Can we just not take this personally? I am literally telling you how to solve this. I am not trying to insult you. I just want things to work, and not have to clean up unneccessary spill from other's messes.

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I think it's better to focus on all the things being done, instead of all the things not being done. You have done those fixes and that is nice, better to focus on that than to continiously come back to the things others have not done.

Edited by datiswous
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12 minutes ago, datiswous said:

I think it's better to focus on all the things being done, instead of all the things not being done. You have done those fixes and that is nice, better to focus on that than to continiously come back to the things others have not done.

My patches are merely fixing the effects of a cause which has to be fixed on the dev end. When they do things like remove shaders that are in use, or remove legacy model support, I can do my best to reroute shaders, but sometimes my best won't be good enough.

The most glaring issue right now, is that the female mages don't have any legs by default. They are just floating in mid-air at this point. I've managed to find some leg models, but the result is horrible. ...but that's all I can do.

...so this isn't fixed until the devs learn to testrun things. These issues are still happening, and more issues will continue to happen, until they do that.

Edited by Nort
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I've noticed that the "Default" shader not being found, is printed just after it goes through listing the layers and the groups of the map (of which I have fifty messages reporting a name of " "" ".). ...and so maybe the code for the groups automatically applies a shader to them for some weird reason. Can I get at that code? Where is it located?

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2 hours ago, Nort said:

Can we just not take this personally?

I'm not. It's just funny.

1 hour ago, Nort said:

My patches are merely fixing the effects of a cause which has to be fixed on the dev end.

You know that this dev thingie is more of a honorary title? It's not like we are employed or something. Most "devs" that started creating the project aren't  even present anymore, and most of those who are currently active (including myself), weren't present at the early days. In addition, people jump on and off depending on how much time and motivation they have. I haven't been active the last two or three years or so, for example.

It is not that noone can or want to understand where you are coming from, it is perfectly clear and it makes perfect sense. But what you can't or don't want to understand although several members have already explained that to you is that the workflow that has evolved over the time is that the devs spend their time on the most important matters first, whereas what is important and what not is something everyone decides on his own.

If you consider the console warning spam important, you are free to improve the situation as far as possible. And we are thankful for your work. But if each status update of yours and your progress is accompanied with a complaint about how important the stuff you are doing is and that we are just to incompetent to acknowledge that or that we are just to lazy to deal with it in addition to what we are already doing, how on earth can you expect to be taken seriously. In a real life situation, face to face, a sarcastically placed smiley would be the least you'd have to expect as a reaction to your behaviour.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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14 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

I'm not. It's just funny.

You know that this dev thingie is more of a honorary title? It's not like we are employed or something. Most "devs" that started creating the project aren't  even present anymore, and most of those who are currently active (including myself), weren't present at the early days. In addition, people jump on and off depending on how much time and motivation they have. I haven't been active the last two or three years or so, for example.

It is not that noone can or want to understand where you are coming from, it is perfectly clear and it makes perfect sense. But what you can't or don't want to understand although several members have already explained that to you is that the workflow that has evolved over the time is that the devs spend their time on the most important matters first, whereas what is important and what not is something everyone decides on his own.

If you consider the console warning spam important, you are free to improve the situation as far as possible. And we are thankful for your work. But if each status update of yours and your progress is accompanied with a complaint about how important the stuff you are doing is and that we are just to incompetent to acknowledge that or that we are just to lazy to deal with it in addition to what we are already doing, how on earth can you expect to be taken seriously. In a real life situation, face to face, a sarcastically placed smiley would be the least you'd have to expect as a reaction to your behaviour.

I'm complaining because there shouldn't be a console spam to begin with. The console spam exists because somebody, or some people, has been doing a sloppy job, and since I can trace back some console logs to months ago, they've also left it that way. ...and it's been part of the project for so long at this point, that people have begun to just get accustomed to them, thinking that spelling shaders right, or checking shader dependencies, "isn't important". If you can't be bothered to check dependencies before you remove a shader, then don't remove the shader. This is important, and shouldn't be fixed in hindsight by somebody else somewhere down the line, just because you "weren't feeling motivated enough" to check the console log for the color red.

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12 hours ago, Nort said:

devs learn to testrun things. These issues are still happening, and more issues will continue to happen, until they do that.

I'm sure they'll take your advice under advisement, starting with your patches. They'll need to test run things with them, but since this is a volunteer only gig, not sure when they'll have time to do that. Maybe they'll get to it by the time 2.13 rolls around in 2024.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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9 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

I'm sure they'll take your advice under advisement, starting with your patches. They'll need to test run things with them, but since this is a volunteer only gig, not sure when they'll have time to do that. Maybe they'll get to it by the time 2.13 rolls around in 2024.

As long as they start with testruns and consulting the console for errors, so that we don't get more issues, they can take as long as they want, because that means that I don't have to keep expanding my patch.

Right now we have a bigger problem, though, because apparently some "volunteer" has been messing with the counting system on 3.0.0. ...and so now the engine can't even count to three, and I'm having to build my maps out of untextured brushes.

...and about dealing with people, is that what you think I do? ...because I think I suck pretty bad at dealing with people. People are weird, squishy things that I'll never understand.

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14 hours ago, Nort said:

I just want things to work, and not have to clean up unneccessary spill from other's messes.

This particular line resonates with me, since as it happens I personally put in effort to make sure that the stuff I make doesnt produce console errors (especially my later FMs and anything I develop or vet for inclusion in the core assets). It's a rare day, though, that I want to give my free time in order to clean up other's messes, especially if the problems only manifest in the console and almost no one is disturbed by them. Maybe if I got a nice salary with good perks for it.

32 minutes ago, Nort said:

As long as they start with testruns and consulting the console for errors, so that we don't get more issues, they can take as long as they want,

Well, it seems they do actually do it, so the urgency can be taken out of this discussion?

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2 minutes ago, Dragofer said:

This particular line resonates with me, since as it happens I personally put in effort to make sure that the stuff I make doesnt produce console errors (especially my later FMs and anything I develop or vet for inclusion in the core assets). It's a rare day, though, that I want to give my free time in order to clean up other's messes, especially if the problems only manifest in the console and almost no one is disturbed by them. Maybe if I got a nice salary with good perks for it.

Well, it seems they do actually do it, so the urgency can be taken out of this discussion?

It doesn't just manifest in the console, and even when it's internal, it will still hinder further development. The console isn't just some alien gadget that spits out nonsense. It's to be used as an indicator of if things go wrong. ...so when a warning appears in the console, that's where warnings come from, and you should take those warnings seriously. It's like saying "Oh, we don't bother with those blinking 'Alert' indicator lights. They always do that.".

It's great that you verify your own work, but even you have this weird attitude where you feel that this engine should be held together with tape and glue, and only be fixed after it's fallen apart, and even then it seems you'd just go "Do I feel inspired to deal with that, or is that someone else's mess that I don't feel like dealing with?". I don't understand why this attitude is so prevalent around here, around my beautiful waifu engine. Now that I've temporarily removed my patches from 3.0.0, my console is just pages of red warnings again, and this is somehow not an urgency to you. It's just weird.

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2 hours ago, greebo said:

Hello Nort. That "some volunteer" you so respectfully refer to, would be me. I'm greebo around here, it's a pleasure to meet you. I'd like to inform you that I didn't mess with anything, especially not the "counting system". And the "engine" is DarkRadiant, which is the editor. And it is still able to count to three, even to four if you want it to. And you can still build your maps just fine, even with textures, because nothing has changed in calculating the texture coordinates, or displaying the brushes, or anything.

Could you please get the facts straight and (more importantly) tone down the stress level just a tiny bit?

As I've explained already, whole numbers being off like that, looked pretty serious. If you found that, and didn't immediately understand what you must have done to cause it, you'd be scared too. My stress levels are now back to normal, which is about five cups of coffee a day.

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8 hours ago, Nort said:

this engine should be held together with tape and glue, and only be fixed after it's fallen apart

Your problem is you're vastly overstating the significance of those console warnings. The time of skilled devs is a limited resource that's hardly going to be spent going after peanuts.

And yes, a person who's worked with the project for years is in a 100x better position than you to determine what's a significant bug and what isn't.

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1 minute ago, Dragofer said:

Your problem is you're vastly overstating the significance of those console warnings. The time of skilled devs is a limited resource that's hardly going to be spent going after peanuts.

I give up trying to reason with you guys. Whatever your problem is, I'm just going to accept it. Just keep doing what you're doing.

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