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POLL: Possibility for mappers to create missions where you cannot save manually, but use checkpoints or other systems instead.


Obsttorte

  

72 members have voted

  1. 1. Should mappers be allowed to turn off manual savings?

    • No, I want to save when I want. And no mapper should tell me how to play his or her mission.
      32
    • I personally prefer beeing able to save whenever I want, but it can't harm to give mappers this opportunity.
      23
    • I think it is an interesting possibility and I would like to see missions using this.
      14
    • I don't care at all.
      0
    • Port TDM to the CryEngine. Now!
      3


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Seriously ? Is that what we're calling it ? I feel so much better hitting the save button now I know some people think I'm a savescummer :(

It's an Internet term; actually, I thought it was funny and never intended to be judgemental. But I will stop using it.

 

I have just figured out how to monetize TDM. When you first install TDM you are given 50 free saves. When those run out, you can purchase save bundles to replenish your supply. ;) People eat that stuff up on all these tablet and phone games I test here at work. lol

We can even call it a new feature!

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Okay, I'm quite late to the topic, but I voted against it! I completely agree with Lux, this is something already available to every player, why force it on people that don't want it? Also there is really no need to "test" this, just ask people to play some of your missions without saving and see how they react. Last not least I don't really get the comparisons with in-game resources. Saving is an out-of-game action. You could just as easily force me to not revert the mouse-look because you prefer to play that way and also it would make my game more challenging as I can't handle the mouse as well as I'm used to...

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You bring up two arguments at which I've responded in this thread already, but I will repeat it:

I completely agree with Lux, this is something already available to every player, why force it on people that don't want it?

You are not forced, you don't have to play the missions. In addition, it is a difference whether you don't use an option which is available, knowing that you can always fall back to using it, or if an option is simple not available.

it would make my game more challenging

As stated before the main intention for me why I want this added is not increasing difficulty, I can already do it by other means.

 

You are right that resource amounts are in-game and save-mechanics are out of the game, but both have something to do with how the game works, the game-mechanics, and how you as a player will perceive the mission. From that perspective they are indeed compareable.

 

Also there is really no need to "test" this, just ask people to play some of your missions without saving and see how they react.

Checkpoints, limited amounts of save and the intentional relinguishment to use saves are three completely different mechanics, which are not compareable to each other.

 

Also, when I say test I mean which effects I can achieve with it.

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Anybody speculating about adding this into their missions should it become a feature should make damn well sure that their mission is well-made and flows naturally. If you're going to send me on a key hunt with no direct clues, having given me a limited amount of saves to search every nook and cranny while remaining stealthy, there's no way I'm going to end up finishing it without resorting to noclip or forum spoilers. Evading guards while having no real direction or guarantee of a pay-off is frustrating enough as it is, and it's just emblematic of poor level design. Removing the safety net of savescumming while I do that would turn down key hunting enthusiasm from 1% to 0. If it's optional and I can turn it on for future playthroughs, sure. If you're hard-coding it into your map, make it play naturally. If said map has a halting momentum with the unprepared protagonist having no idea where to go, it'll be miserable to play.

Edited by Airship Ballet
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I laughed on the port vote :D

So you voted for it then?! :D

 

It'S funny because it's true ;)

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If I remember correctly, originally Aliens vs Predator only had a checkpoint system in place for game saves, but it wasnt like CoDs, that saves every few meters, it was quite sparse, and since they freaking nailed the aliens so well, it became sincerely nerve wrecking to go down those alleys, fighting them was genuinely hard and not being able to save made each encounter highly emotional. They later released a patch that would allow for limited saves, the number tied to difficulty. So you had to manage your saves, and Im not sure, but the checkpoint system was still there to back you up. This was many moons ago. Still, the point is that in that environment, the creators wanted people to feel actual fear of the monsters in the game, just like people did in the films. It was very effective, not being able to save after every bullet hit, you would have to worry about ammo, you would go foward very cautionsly, if they got you, it was over. So there is definitely room for great gaming experiences that take us out of our confort zones, like obs himslef said.

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I voted port to CryEngine, because it seems this discussion is a "for or against" discussion, and not a "would anyone like to have both", which is where my viewpoint lies.

 

Edit: and by discussion, I mean the poll and initial thread posts, not where the discussion went in the later replies.

Edited by Xarg

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think being able to save anywhere you want is a game function, in other words, a function of The Dark Mod itself, and fan mission makers shouldn't be deciding what Dark Mod functions will be altered or changed during a mission. Fan mission designers can make the missions more or less challenging in many ways already, but altering what standard functions of TDM (like saving anywhere) that you can use is another matter altogether.

 

Having said that, *if* it were something totally optional that could be activated in the game menu for missions which are designed to support that type of saving as an alternate play style for more difficulty or whatever reason (but the mission will still work and play fine without activating the limited saves option in the game menu), then I guess that would be ok.

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I vote for No interfering with the players play style. It feels like the Thief games was made quite hard to begin with and then as the fandom went stronger, players started putting up self imposed challenges like no saving and utterly ghosting missions to the point where you leave keys and other stuff where they where when you took them. This is and should always be player controlled! Now when we have a functional mod, we get discussions about trying to put these challenges hard coded into the missions?? The difficulty settings should only affect amount of loot/equipment, no/limited KO/killing, mandatory objectives, extra AI etc... Couldn't we just put the amounts of save games used in the summary at mission finish?

 

If you feel like it, you can brag because all the stuff you have achieved, but don't force others to try to accomplish the same!

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I voted for the 2nd option (I personally prefer etc.) It is always better for the mapper to have as many options as possible layed out in frount of them. If a mapper would like to make a check point like save system in their mod and they know what their doing then it would be convenient to have the options integrated into the engine.

 

I, m replaying bioshock infinite atm with the dlc in 1999 mode and am dying often but I know this 1999 mode difficulty is the hardest and if I permanently die well I can choose an easier difficulty but the game should have a save anytime anywhere option on easier difficulties.

 

I say more options more better for mapper but if implemented should be save anywhere anytime on by default.

 

My 2 bits.

Edited by Tr00pertj

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  • 1 month later...

I vote for No interfering with the players play style. It feels like the Thief games was made quite hard to begin with and then as the fandom went stronger, players started putting up self imposed challenges like no saving and utterly ghosting missions to the point where you leave keys and other stuff where they where when you took them. This is and should always be player controlled! Now when we have a functional mod, we get discussions about trying to put these challenges hard coded into the missions?? The difficulty settings should only affect amount of loot/equipment, no/limited KO/killing, mandatory objectives, extra AI etc... Couldn't we just put the amounts of save games used in the summary at mission finish?

 

If you feel like it, you can brag because all the stuff you have achieved, but don't force others to try to accomplish the same!

 

I agree.

At some point I used to be obsessed with things being done "the wrong way" in my playthroughs, but over time I just stopped caring for some reason.

It just depends on your mood and such a thing may break someone's heart if they are not feeling like "doing it all over again" because of some small detail. You never know!

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

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  • 10 months later...

I personally like the idea of the checkpoint system for example, as it highly increases tense and difficulty and forces you to play more careful and deliberately - the possibility to save whenever you want might offer more convenience but removes a lot of difficulty and might lead to a more sloppy style of play.

 

Currently there are the tools for creating stuff like this already included, but maps using this systems are kinda lacking.

Edited by Silverd
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  • 3 weeks later...

I believe this was already implemented a while ago, 2.03 if I'm not mistaken. As for my opinion on it, I can't say that I mind; It's a choice of the artist, who simply has more control over the mechanics of their mission now. I think it's bad mapping to abuse it however... in my opinion it should not be used on the Easy difficulty, only for Normal and Hard where you can have limited or no saves.

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