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Some issues you came along in FM's


chakkman
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Hey,

 

not trying to bash on the missions or their authors here, just trying to find some small issues present in some FM's, so the map authors take notice, and may avoid those in future FM's.

 

Actually, for now, i only have one, but i hope that others can contribute too. What i found present in many FM's: Doors which swing to the hallway side. I don't know if anyone is aware how dangerous that can be. I don't know how it used to be in the middle age, but i'm pretty sure that it is like that for a long time now, and that architects make sure that the doors swing into the rooms, not the hallways.

 

So, yeah, pretty small niggle for now, but i'm sure map makers can make sure that that won't happen. :)

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Doors which swing to the hallway side. I don't know if anyone is aware how dangerous that can be. I don't know how it used to be in the middle age, but i'm pretty sure that it is like that for a long time now, and that architects make sure that the doors swing into the rooms, not the hallways.

 

I blame Europeans.

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Hey,

 

not trying to bash on the missions or their authors here, just trying to find some small issues present in some FM's, so the map authors take notice, and may avoid those in future FM's.

 

Actually, for now, i only have one, but i hope that others can contribute too. What i found present in many FM's: Doors which swing to the hallway side. I don't know if anyone is aware how dangerous that can be. I don't know how it used to be in the middle age, but i'm pretty sure that it is like that for a long time now, and that architects make sure that the doors swing into the rooms, not the hallways.

 

So, yeah, pretty small niggle for now, but i'm sure map makers can make sure that that won't happen. :)

I don't think it matters that much. It's not a conclusive idea in my thoughts.

People were lucky in the middle ages to have lived on to their 30's.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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I think it pretty much depends on the doors and preferences. Due to safety standards doors are supposed to open in the direction of an escape route, so in case of a panic with many people, the doors can be opened even if there is a lot of people pressing on from behind. However, this might be true only for certain buildings, but most official buildings should be built that way. I mainly know of this rule, because at the organic chemistry department of my university this was not the case and it was pointed out to me. My apartment door, on the other side, opens inward, so I don't know if there really is a general rule.

 

EDIT: The German Wikipedia actually has an article about the opening direction of doors. It states that in general the door should open away from areas with much traffic with the exception of doors along escape routes. Apparently, there are several laws about how to build correctly in Germany (not that I am surprised) and this belongs to them.

Edited by Destined
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I think it pretty much depends on the doors and preferences. Due to safety standards doors are supposed to open in the direction of an escape route, so in case of a panic with many people, the doors can be opened even if there is a lot of people pressing on from behind. However, this might be true only for certain buildings, but most official buildings should be built that way. I mainly know of this rule, because at the organic chemistry department of my university this was not the case and it was pointed out to me. My apartment door, on the other side, opens inward, so I don't know if there really is a general rule.

 

EDIT: The German Wikipedia actually has an article about the opening direction of doors. It states that in general the door should open away from areas with much traffic with the exception of doors along escape routes. Apparently, there are several laws about how to build correctly in Germany (not that I am surprised) and this belongs to them.

 

Interesting. I only found this: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96ffnungsrichtung_von_T%C3%BCren and it pretty much says that it's up to the architecture, and, as i stated, you wouldn't really plan that a door opens against the movement direction, so i rather consider it a bad idea to plan a door which opens from a bedroom to the hallway to open to the hallway side. I think that should be pretty much the norm too, i never saw it differently somewhere.

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That is the article I meant. In the paragraph "außen - innen" [outward - inward] it sais

 


In der Regel werden Türen und Beschläge so eingebaut, dass ein Türblatt in einen Raum hinein schwingt. Also von einer Verkehrsfläche, wie beispielsweise einem Flur, in den eigentlichen Raum. Ausnahmen bilden mitunter sehr kleine Räume, wie WCs oder Abstellräume, deren Türen auch aus einem Raum hinaus aufschlagen können, um diesen besser betreten und nutzen zu können.

In dieser Frage gibt es teilweise weiterreichende baurechtliche Vorschriften, so dürfen Fluchttüren nur in die Richtung des Fluchtweges aufschlagen, genaueres regeln für Deutschland die Sonderbauverordnungen wie z. B. die Versammlungsstättenverordnung (VStättVO).

Translated "Generally, doors and "Beschläge" [no idea what the correct English word is, fixtures?] are built in in a way that the door leaf swings into the room. I.e. away from a traffic area, like a hall, into the room. Exceptions are very small rooms like toilets or storage rooms, the doors of which can open to the outside to better be able to enter and use the room.

On this topic there are in part extensive regulations in "building law", like that escape doors may only open in the direction of the escape route. More precise rules in Germany are included in the "Sonderbauordnuung" [special building law] like the "Versammlungsstättenordnung" [law for gathering places]."

So, as soon as there supposedly are a lot of people, doors should open along the direction of the escape route (as I stated before, so that they can be opened even if a croud has gathered around the door, which would prevent you from pulling it open). All other cases are up to the architect, as you said, and generally it is sensible to let it swing away from traffic areas.

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Doors in medieval times would open inwards due to the fact they can be barricaded, either with a bar, or several bars, to keep wild animals(wolves, bears) and other dangerous elements out. like snow and people with axes/swords/hammers.

Although this be due to medieval houses being long buildings with people living at one end and their animals at the other. You don't then need any safety exit, that is normally barred but open outwards.

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At last I have clarity on which way to let my doors open. My quite subjective approach so far has been to take these factors into account:

- which direction gives AIs the most space to move when the door's open

- from which direction is the player likely to come

- which direction offers the best view on the room when open

 

Well maybe it'd be more accurate to say that German building regulations are yet another factor to help... swing the decision.

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Tight hallways and walkways when shit is really crowded.

I know this falls under "assume the worst in AI pathing" but it holds true even for the best, it may look pretty but that doesn't mean a damned thing when I see two (or more) AI wrestling for a spot.

Edited by V-Man339

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At work almost all doors open towards the hallways. At home, one door opens towards the room and two opens towards the hallway. The latter ones are those for my bath and kitchen, which are rather small, so I guess this is due to size constraints. I think the safety restrictions in regards to escape routes mainly apply for public buildings, where there are a lot of people.

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Yeah, modern building techniques/restraints can not really applied for TDM. And I agree with Dragofer and V-man: This may be one of the cases, where it is sensible to sacrifice realism for gameplay/pathing issues. This does not mean that the two exclude each other. It is less likely to block AI paths if the door opens into the room as AIs in a hallway will not be affected, which is exactly the same reasoning for doors to not open into hallways in real life. All in all I think it is very dependent on the specific case/door. But it is well enough to be reminded that a simple thing as the opening direction of doors can have an effect on gameplay and has to be considered.

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As does any game, and has to. Otherwise it would be no fun to play. I mean, if it was realistic, a guard would not pass you by only a couple of centimeters before you, without noticing you. But it is a game and no simulation, so I don't need too much realism and just enjoy the game.

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Mine would be consistency, most missions in TDM work according to the same rules which we learn and carry between missions

 

If you've decided to change those rules say by adding an attribute to an item that doesn't normally have it then please add it to all such items in your mission

 

For example if you've decided to make a banner or flag climbable, then they should all be climbable so the player doesn't go leaping off tall buildings thinking they have an object they can climb as a target when they haven't or so the player doesn't try a few banners decide they can't be climbed and end up ignoring the one that lets them achieve a goal

 

Also there should be a way of finding this out which isn't lethal on failure, mention it in the preamble, have a readable somewhere or introduce it early on in a way that's safe but can't really be avoided so your new mechanic gets introduced early

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There was a suggestion some time time ago to introduce a tag-system for missions that includes any unusual mechanics mechanics or specialities in the Mission Details (at that time climbable draining pipes were mentioned), but it was never actually done. There are some more infos on the Fan Missions page in the Wiki, but these include only the mission type and the presence of spiders or zombies. The main problem with such a tag system (or even with the more detailed descriptions) is, that there are a LOT of mission for which it would have to be done retroactively, which means a lot of rather monotonous writing work not to mention that you need to know each mission and the mechanics applied in it (although for the latter, one could ask the map authors directly if they would be willing to give out a list for their existing missions). Maybe FM authors could be urged to add the respective information in the Mission Details, but it would still be up to the author to include them.

I agree, that the best way for introducing unusual mechanisms would be to "force" the player to use the mechanism early on in the mission, but just as with the Mission Details, this is up to the author.

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Yeah, modern building techniques/restraints can not really applied for TDM. And I agree with Dragofer and V-man: This may be one of the cases, where it is sensible to sacrifice realism for gameplay/pathing issues.

Yeah. Realism is fine and dandy until your missions turn into this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDedpreZH-0

Don't.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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