Frob outline poll

[Oktokolo]

13 hours ago, NeonsStyle said:

I tried all 3 presets and to be honest I couldn't tell any difference.

If you don't see a difference, chances are, you got an error when trying to switcgh between them and actually only saw one of them all the time.

[NeonsStyle]

On 12/24/2021 at 7:11 AM, Abusimplea said:

If you don't see  difference, chances are, you got an error when trying to switcgh between them and actually only saw one of them all the time.

I checked this and I am getting an error. Unrecognised command. I have the latest version. Updated before trying this.

[Oktokolo]

9 hours ago, NeonsStyle said:

I checked this and I am getting an error. Unrecognised command. I have the latest version. Updated before trying this.

Well, doublecheck that you indeed have "beta210-02" by running the installer with "Get custom version" checked.

Then paste "r_frobOutlinePreset 1", r_frobOutlinePreset 2" or "r_frobOutlinePreset 3" into the console and see whether it still errors out or actually changes your frob outline between "sharp max-bright white outer glow", "soft max-bright white outer glow + poly-counter-assist vertex glow", and "drop-shadow-style soft max-bright white outer glow".

Sometimes when you open the console and paste or type something, it can ignore some of the characters. In that case just press return and repeat typing or pasting the command.

P.S.: Don't forget, that you are voting on the outlines - not the still also visible brightening of the object itself.

[NeonsStyle]

4 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

Well, doublecheck that you indeed have "beta210-02" by running the installer with "Get custom version" checked.

Then paste "r_frobOutlinePreset 1", r_frobOutlinePreset 2" or "r_frobOutlinePreset 3" into the console and see whether it still errors out or actually changes your frob outline between "sharp max-bright white outer glow", "soft max-bright white outer glow + poly-counter-assist vertex glow", and "drop-shadow-style soft max-bright white outer glow".

Sometimes when you open the console and paste or type something, it can ignore some of the characters. In that case just press return and repeat typing or pasting the command.

P.S.: Don't forget, that you are voting on the outlines - not the still also visible brightening of the object itself.

There's no option to "Get Custom version" 
If I click Advanced Options, I get a new window which has the following options:

Don't search for new Mirrors

Prevent TDM Update from Updating itself

Don't delete differential update packages after applying them. 

Target folder

Proxy 

and that's it. If instead of clicking Advanced Options, and just click Continue, it just updates. No Get Customer version. Clealrly I"m missing something lol. Current Vers is 2.09 64 bit.

Edited December 26, 2021 by NeonsStyle

[nbohr1more]

You need to use tdm_installer not tdm_update

[stgatilov]

Some news.

There are three more outline presets in the latest beta version (mentioned e.g. in changelog in beta testing thread).
I can't add them to existing poll, so hopefully someone will create another thread + poll about them.

The only thing that I have to say: for me, the dark outline is not doing its thing in typical conditions. When everything is dark (fully dark room), the dark outline is completely invisible, which is not much different from having no outline at all. And it means that if you see a fully-translucent object (like flask) in dark room, you won't notice anything when you frob-highlight it. It does not solve the problem that we wanted to solve with outline.

[Springheel]

19 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

The only thing that I have to say: for me, the dark outline is not doing its thing in typical conditions. When everything is dark (fully dark room), the dark outline is completely invisible, which is not much different from having no outline at all. And it means that if you see a fully-translucent object (like flask) in dark room, you won't notice anything when you frob-highlight it. It does not solve the problem that we wanted to solve with outline.

 

The only problem (from a player perspective) with the original frob was that you couldn't see it in well-lit situations.  The highlight+dark outline combo solves that problem.  In dark settings, the highlight is easy to see.  In light settings, the dark outline is easy to see.  There should no longer be any cases where players can't tell whether something is frobbable or not.  Whether players like it, aesthetically speaking, is up for debate (I think it looks pretty good from screenshots).

 

 

[stgatilov]

25 minutes ago, Springheel said:

The only problem (from a player perspective) with the original frob was that you couldn't see it in well-lit situations.  The highlight+dark outline combo solves that problem.  In dark settings, the highlight is easy to see.

But without material frob stages, the objects will be highlighted differently.
Some objects are not highlighted at all.

[nbohr1more]

11 minutes ago, stgatilov said:

But without material frob stages, the objects will be highlighted differently.
Some objects are not highlighted at all.

We might need to add a small amount ( high multiplier ) of edge fresnel to the frob shader after all ?

I will tinker with the frob.fs glprog tonight.

[nbohr1more]

Tinkering not going so well.

No value that I adjust in frob_flat.frag.glsl causes any change.

There are really only 2 candidate variables:

u_color ;

tex ;

Adding 0.5 or 20 or any value has no effect on the render output.

 

[cabalistic]

3 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

No value that I adjust in frob_flat.frag.glsl causes any change.

Wrong shader, look at stages/frob/frob_apply.frag.glsl. Though honestly, returning to fresnel feels like we are moving in circles... If that had worked well and not be ugly as fuck, we wouldn't be where we are right now

[Springheel]

21 hours ago, stgatilov said:

But without material frob stages, the objects will be highlighted differently.
Some objects are not highlighted at all.

I was assuming the screenshots--which combine highlighting plus dark outline--meant that it was a viable alternative.  If it's not, that's going to confuse people.

[STiFU]

On 1/10/2022 at 5:05 PM, stgatilov said:

And it means that if you see a fully-translucent object (like flask) in dark room, you won't notice anything when you frob-highlight it. It does not solve the problem that we wanted to solve with outline.

That is not entirely correct. When we started, we had two goals and two separate methods to achieve them: One, we wanted to move the surface-frobhighlight to GLSL in order to get rid of that damn material definition clutter, and two, we wanted to solve the brightness-issue (not seeing highlighted objects in brightly lit areas) with the frob-outline. Let's have a look at each of methods/goals separately now:

• Our new GLSL-surface-highlight allows us to remove the material definition, yay, but it does not work for all types of materials, because some materials require customization to work well!
• The dark outline-frob-highlight solves the brightness-issue, as the dark outline is perfectly visible in brightly lit areas, but a proper surface highlight is required so our frob-highlight also works in dark areas.

So, to me, there is only one logical conclusion: We need a proper surface-highlight for all materials! That means, we have to retain material-based customization in some form, as I already suggested a few months ago. 

Yes, the implementation might be a little messier in our engine, but it would be the best solution for the player and that's would we should focus on, shouldn't we? The combination dark-outline and regular surface-highlight is objectively the best solution.

[Oktokolo]

2 hours ago, STiFU said:

So, to me, there is only one logical conclusion: We need a proper surface-highlight for all materials! That means, we have to retain material-based customization in some form, as I already suggested a few months ago. 

Couldn't there just be a little bit of pulsating grey be overlayed over the targeted geometry?

Primitive example for pulsating grey: https://glslsandbox.com/e#78468.1 (imagine it overlayed with plenty of alpha over whatever the pixel would show when not frob targetted).

[nbohr1more]

21 hours ago, cabalistic said:

Wrong shader, look at stages/frob/frob_apply.frag.glsl. Though honestly, returning to fresnel feels like we are moving in circles... If that had worked well and not be ugly as fuck, we wouldn't be where we are right now

Thanks for the tip. Actually, the correct shader is frob_highlight.frag.glsl.

Back to tinkering.

[peter_spy]

I wouldn't say that the dark outline is the best solution. According to these screenshots it looks more like toon shader, like in Borderlands:

Adding fresnel won't help either; it works great for curved surfaces like spheres or models with bevelled edges, but will never do anything substantial for simple box shapes like doors.

[ate0ate]

After playing with the presets for quite a while now I personally vote for preset 6. The vast majority of the time the black outline is not noticeable at all since the missions tend to be mostly dark obviously. The highlighting is essentially visually the same as it has always been so that looks nice. The outline does make things easier to see in bright, especially very bright, situations and just sort of makes the highlight itself stand out under those conditions.

So to sum it up, for me, things look about the same as ever in the dark and I can actually see things in the light now. Its a win-win in my mind. I love what's been done here but I know many hate change so I am most likely in the minority. Still, preset 6 has my vote.

[wesp5]

I agree completely, I am playing with preset 6 right now although I hated all the white ones!

[Oktokolo]

While definitely clearly visible even in dim lighting, the black glow outline (preset 6) looks good to me.
It still has some glitches. But they don't jump right in your face in dim to dark environments. Most environments in TDM are dim or dark.

[Spooks]

After a couple of weeks I've found myself not wanting to move away from preset 3, the image-based one. It's probably got the worst clipping errors of the bunch, yes, but it somehow feels the most unintrusive. I like Deus Ex as much as the next guy but the other presets make it feel a little too much like I'm playing that and not TDM. The only personal change I've made is lower the alpha and change the bright white outline to a bluish-purple. I tried orange, to go with the principle Dark Mod color, but blue is the lowest in luminance, so it is better on the eyes. Tinge it purple and you have a nice thiefy color.

No screenshots but, well, I will post some regardless. I think people need to be aware that they can fully customize the hue and transparency of the outline to suit their needs, at least through the console.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Spooks

[Oktokolo]

2 hours ago, Spooks said:

I think people need to be aware that they can fully customize the hue and transparency of the outline to suit their needs, at least through the console.

Yes, definitely important knowledge.

So as listing available console commands isn't something i ever managed to do ("help", "?", "list", "commands", "cmds"... nothing i can intuitively come up with, lists them)...

What actually are the commands for setting hue, saturation, luminance and glow-width?

[AluminumHaste]

In case people are wondering what the presets look like, here's a quick and dirty video showing presets 1-6

 

[AluminumHaste]

19 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

Yes, definitely important knowledge.

So as listing available console commands isn't something i ever managed to do ("help", "?", "list", "commands", "cmds"... nothing i can intuitively come up with, lists them)...

What actually are the commands for setting hue, saturation, luminance and glow-width?

In the console type:

listCvars

It will then list them all, then you can dump your console contents to a text file with

condump cvarlist.txt

Then it should be in the Darkmod folder. Then you can search for the various variables.

[AluminumHaste]

Brighter situation:

 

[AluminumHaste]

Frob Highlighting a door in the dark, very common situation.

I like preset 5 the most (geometric black). In the bright areas it helps (when you need it) and in the dark areas, you don't even see it.