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Frob outline poll


stgatilov
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What would you feel if frob outline is always enabled?  

20 members have voted

  1. 1. With r_frobOutlinePreset 1 (geometric hard)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      8
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      1
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      4
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      7
  2. 2. With r_frobOutlinePreset 2 (geometric soft)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      8
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      1
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      7
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      4
  3. 3. With r_frobOutlinePreset 3 (image-based)

    • Will be happy to use it all the time!
      6
    • I don't care if it is enabled or not.
      3
    • I'm don't like how it looks/feels, but won't regret much if it is enabled.
      3
    • I'm strongly against this outline, and don't want playing with it!
      8


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I guess it is time to decide: either we can rely on frob outline always enabled, if we should drop the idea and think about refactoring the old material-based system. We need public opinion on this matter.

There are three presets right now, and each preset gets a separate vote independently. Comparing presets against each other is not the main goal of this poll, so please do not decrease/increase some votes only because your like another preset more/less.

Before voting, please make sure that:

  1. You have the latest dev build installed (e.g. previous dev build had a problem with bloom, which is fixed in the latest one).
  2. You have played a fair amount of time with each of the outlines enabled. Don't judge by screenshots or after merely enabling it for a minute on a test map.

UPDATE: In order enable preset 1, open game console and execute "r_frobOutlinePreset 1". You should see a very thin but very bright outline around frobbed objects then. To enable preset 2, execute "r_frobOutlinePreset 2" (this one should be wider and softer), and the same for preset 3 (which is the widest one).

 

 

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You again left out the option to make the outline toggeable in the UI like I suggested multiple times and already did for my patch in a matter of minutes! You could still use the results from this poll to choose the favorite version while making sure that you don't force it on people who hate the idea itself, like myself.

Edited by wesp5
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19 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

You again left out the option to make the outline toggeable

In case anyone forgot... if we decide to rely on frob outline, then some translucent objects will only be highlighted by the outline. Without outline, such objects will look as they are not frobable at all, and there will be no way around it, because material stages will be removed.

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1 hour ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

it just doesn’t work well with objects with small transparent areas like meshes and the like.

If you are talking about perforated / alpha-tested objects, then you probably think about the old version.
Are you sure you tried it in the latest dev build?

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1 hour ago, stgatilov said:

Without outline, such objects will look as they are not frobable at all, and there will be no way around it, because material stages will be removed.

Can you explain what material stages are and why they will be removed? Especially as Wellingstoncrab wrote that the new version has issues with transparent areas as well.

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7 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Can you explain what material stages are and why they will be removed?

They are these chunks in .mtr files:

	{
        if ( parm11 > 0 )
        blend       gl_dst_color, gl_one
        map         _white
        rgb         0.40 * parm11
    }
    {
        if ( parm11 > 0 )
        blend       add
        map         textures/darkmod/decals/lace/doily_02
        rgb         0.15 * parm11
    }

Artists regularly forget adding them, resulting in objects which are frobable but are not highlighted.
Also, I think @Dragofer said that they scare people away from tweaking material files.

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So if these objects are not highlighted nowadays, why should it matter if they are not highlighted if the outline is disabled? From my point of view we are messing up the atmosphere of all missions here, just for a few cases that most players never might have noticed in the first place...

Edited by wesp5
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1 hour ago, wesp5 said:

So if these objects are not highlighted nowadays, why should it matter if they are not highlighted if the outline is disabled? From my point of view we are messing up the atmosphere of all missions here, just for a few cases that most players never might have noticed in the first place...

I think this is mixing up 2 different things:

- Under the current system mappers are obliged to add the above blocks of code to every material if it should ever frob highlight. Not only does this clutter material files and deter mappers from learning the material system because of the unnecessary apparent complexity, it's also occasionally forgotten by mappers, and not every mapper is able to troubleshoot why his objects don't highlight if these blocks are missing. These 2 blocks should at the very least be simplified into a single line (which solves some of the problems above) or else be handled automatically (which solves all of the above problems). Handling highlighting automatically without manually adding code to each materials is one of 2 things being done here - the other thing is to add a frob outline.

- The new automatic highlighting, however, has problems with transparent textures, since different transparent textures have different needs for frob highlighting, and an automatic system has difficulties applying the correct solution in each situation, potentially causing errors like shown above by wellingtoncrab. One of the only safe solutions for transparent textures may be to not highlight them at all and rely on the outline instead.

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Can I set the brightness of the r_frobOutlinePreset ? I find them too bright. Or set the color to grey for example?

Also, I would like to test r_frobOutlinePreset in combination with r_newfrob 2 (no higlight), but with the 3 r_frobOutlinePresets this setting is ignored, so higlight is always enabled.

Am using 2.10 #9648

Edited by datiswous
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Thanks for posting the screenshot of the choices, wellington.

For a beginner, those screenshots are needed, when they dont know how to set these settings.

I havent tested these settings yet, but at first glance at the those screenshots, i prefer preset 1. Because preset 3 will light my display/gameroom up.

But it is a matter of taste, so make these settings selectable in the menu.

Edited by freyk

Info: My portfolio and darkmod graphical installer
Amnesty for Bikerdude!

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1 hour ago, freyk said:

For a beginner, those screenshots are needed, when they don't know how to set these settings.

On 12/11/2021 at 12:54 PM, stgatilov said:

You have played a fair amount of time with each of the outlines enabled. Don't judge by screenshots or after merely enabling it for a minute on a test map.

If you don't know how to set it, you shouldn't vote. stgatilov maybe should have explained how to set these settings.

The way to set these:

  1. Ingame hit CtrL + Alt + ~  keys (or  in Linux  ~ key)
  2. Now you see the console. In it you typ:
  3. r_frobOutlinePreset 1 or r_frobOutlinePreset 2 or r_frobOutlinePreset 3
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19 hours ago, Dragofer said:

frob outline

I find all the frob-outlines distracting and therefore would disable them (if possible) to preserve atmosphere. Maybe the frob-outline should change brightness based on gamma and/or brightness level?

19 hours ago, Dragofer said:

The new automatic highlighting, however, has problems with transparent textures, since different transparent textures have different needs for frob highlighting, and an automatic system has difficulties applying the correct solution in each situation, potentially causing errors like shown above by wellingtoncrab.

Is it maybe possible to still use material stages only for transparent textures and use the new automatic highlighting for all the other textures?

Edited by datiswous
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On 12/11/2021 at 6:45 AM, Wellingtoncrab said:

on preset 3, ... - it just doesn’t work well with objects with small transparent areas like meshes and the like.

Yes, the outline on 3 doesn't handle alpha meshes well.  I like both 1 and 2 with a slight preference for 2.  I've been working/playtesting my WIP intensively with outlines 1 or 2 on.   IMO both are an improvement over the no-outline version and neither are more immersion breaking than with no-outline.    I'll also be happy to see the last of that mandatory frob-highlight script that I have to write into every material just in case I use it on a frobable.

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As I mentioned I do like the look of preset 3 - and it’s actually kind of cool it can trace even the smallest portions of alpha on a material accurately. In some ways that is not an error but a potential feature - the outline itself is so just thick and bright this inevitably occludes things behind the highlight.

Not sure if the intensity and thickness of the image based outline in preset 3 can be pulled down to be more in line with the other presets - but I think I recall in original thread that maybe this was not possible.

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I vastly prefer preset 2 compared to the others.

 

Preset 1 looks rather weird to me and present 3 is too strong. Preset 2 is a good middle ground.

 

If this is implemented as a permanent feature I do hope that we have a choice between all four options though. Something like: strong, soft, softest and off. With the default being set to soft aka Preset 2 would be the best.

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Option 2 seems the most stable. However visually I like 3  when its toned down (blurpass = 0.3 and brightness about 0.5.

@stgatilov Can we give players the ability to control the alpha (brightness) of both the line and the highlight in the settings menu? 

I also think the default values are too high. They should mimic the strength of the old highlight. These settings feel close to me:
r_frobOutlineColorA = 0.5 
r_frobHighlightColorMult(RBG) = 0.1

 

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On 12/15/2021 at 10:18 PM, Goldwell said:

If this is implemented as a permanent feature I do hope that we have a choice between all four options though. Something like: strong, soft, softest and off. With the default being set to soft aka Preset 2 would be the best.

Also I agree with this, I know its a pain to support all of them but it would be awesome if players can choose.

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2 hours ago, kingsal said:

Also I agree with this, I know its a pain to support all of them but it would be awesome if players can choose.

Would it, though? Mappers need to know what to design for. I don't mind advanced players playing with cvars to do whatever, but any UI option means we "officially" endorse that particular mode. And then maps should work in any of those modes, which, judging from prior mapper comments, isn't as trivial as it might sound. Especially the choice between "on" and "off" is quite impactful here.

Which is why I must again strongly object to any UI choices on the feature. Either implement it or scrap it. No half measures, please.

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