Things that could be improved

[wesp5]

7 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Remember guards are trained, the player is not. The sword was always last choice.

That's why I never do it, it's also not my style. But it was nice to see that it is possible!

[Melchior]

Dis-armament...

So Armed foes drop their main weapon when downed - what if...They could be Dis-Armed in combat?

Perhaps as an optional challenge this applied to players too?

As to how it happens / what kind of combat technique, poor-block or random bad-luck...I'd leave that up to playtesting.

This leaves another 'gap'; Unarmed/Melee fighters - whom might still be willing to fight on... implies the need for some kind of 'unarmed' stance / animation set  for this to work.

[datiswous]

On 1/7/2017 at 11:45 PM, Anderson said:

Is it possible to make the death screen an option upon death?

For example let the game still being on and the camera just laying on the ground, but the screen not fading away.

Instead let the mouse appear and let us select from : quit FM, quit TDM, load save and start over.

I still think this could be cool. Change the death gui a bit and whala.. I whould add a load button, so that makes: Restart, Objectives, End and Load.

Edit: Probably when you die the game automatically ends..

Edited April 21, 2023 by datiswous

[OrbWeaver]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:34 PM, Daft Mugi said:

@kin Here are more details about how I reduce footstep sound volumes.

I extract the footstep sounds from tdm_sound_sfx02.pk4.

While that may be an acceptable solution for you, it is the worst possible way to reduce the volume of sounds. You are introducing serial recompression artifacts for no benefit, and the process is unnecessarily cumbersome if you want to experiment with several different volume levels.

Instead, you should just edit (or add) the volume field in the respective .sndshd files, which changes the volume in-game without touching the sound files. For example, "volume -3" will make the sound approximately half as loud. This is a one-line change which is quick and easy to test and does not introduce any compression artifacts.

[Daft Mugi]

14 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

Instead, you should just edit (or add) the volume field in the respective .sndshd files, which changes the volume in-game without touching the sound files. For example, "volume -3" will make the sound approximately half as loud. This is a one-line change which is quick and easy to test and does not introduce any compression artifacts.

Previously, I was told that editing the .sndshd files isn't a good solution and that the volume cannot be raised with .sndshd files. Also, those changed .sndshd files may need to be maintained and updated for each TDM release. That's why I chose the solution of reducing the volume on the sound files themselves.

14 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

You are introducing serial recompression artifacts for no benefit, and the process is unnecessarily cumbersome if you want to experiment with several different volume levels.

I haven't noticed any sound artifacts, especially since the original sound files are only edited once.

There is a benefit: It's not too loud anymore.

Editing a volume property in a .sndshd file is no more cumbersome than editing a volume property in my script and rerunning it.

14 hours ago, OrbWeaver said:

While that may be an acceptable solution for you, it is the worst possible way to reduce the volume of sounds.

Reducing the volume on the sound files themselves was arrived at after discussing it with other devs and mission authors and after weighing the pros and cons. You may not think it is the best solution, but it sure isn't the worst.

You sound like you know all about this. Could you please teach us how to edit sound volumes, lowering and raising them using .sndshd files? I look forward to your how-to guide. Then, your how-to guide can be another resource for players.

[stgatilov]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:12 PM, OrbWeaver said:

Instead, you should just edit (or add) the volume field in the respective .sndshd files, which changes the volume in-game without touching the sound files. For example, "volume -3" will make the sound approximately half as loud. This is a one-line change which is quick and easy to test and does not introduce any compression artifacts.

I guess footstep sounds are played from within source code.
So their volume can only be changed there without information loss.

There are already many cvars about that, but a brief glance shows that perhaps they are ignored...

[Daft Mugi]

@stgatilov Do you know why sndshd files cannot raise the volume of sounds?

Also, there is conflicting advice from different devs about how to adjust the sound volume.

Perhaps we should create another thread about this and arrive at an official TDM dev team solution.

[HMart]

Quote

Do you know why sndshd files cannot raise the volume of sounds?

This most be a TDM only thing, because I tried it right now and I can use volume keyword, in a sound shader, in Dewm 3 engine, to both increase and decrease sound volume. 

Or unless is particular to the player footsteps, I didn't tested those, will see and update this comment. 

Worked with the player footsteps sounds as well but I remember messing around with the c++ code to make those work. I used Blendo Games starter pack and the player system that comes with it, has the footstep system disabled, this because the starter pack has no real player model, just a floating camera.

Spoiler

The footsteps from original Doom 3, were based on the player animation, if I'm not mistaken they are called from within the player animation def file, at the frames where the character model puts his right or left foot on the ground, so that may make the handling of the sounds different from normal. 

 

Ps- btw I add to call reloadDecls in the console NOT reloadSounds for the volume keyword to work.  

Edited April 22, 2023 by HMart

[OrbWeaver]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:42 PM, stgatilov said:

I guess footstep sounds are played from within source code.
So their volume can only be changed there without information loss.

There are already many cvars about that, but a brief glance shows that perhaps they are ignored...

That's odd, because when I was working on the footsteps years ago, I was definitely adding volume decls to lower the volume of sounds. Perhaps something has changed since then regarding how the code interacts with sound shader keywords.

I do recall that there are problems with using sound shaders to increase volume, as others have reported, which is why it's a good idea to make sure your original sound files are fully normalised (volume maximised) before they go into the mod.

[kin]

I asked someone that has no idea about dark mod to play for 10 min and describe player foot steps. She said that it sounds more like you are trying to actively make noise walking or running (very clappy) rather trying to be silent. Definately we would benefit with some kind of adjustment.

Edited May 2, 2023 by kin

[HMart]

7 hours ago, kin said:

I asked someone that has no idea about dark mod to play for 10 min and describe player foot steps. She said that it sounds more like you are trying to actively make noise walking or running (very clappy) rather trying to be silent. Definately we would benefit with some kind of adjustment.

Perhaps but the game, has gameplay features that can muffle your footsteps sounds, carpet and other ground textures, the vine arrows also, so by making them more silent/quiet, imo you may end removing the incentive, for mission makers and players to make use of those.

To me, If a player thinks the footsteps are to loud then maybe the mission maker, didn't put enough ways for the player to walk more silently in the level and so he always hears loud footsteps and thinks that is bad/broken.

Btw what about incentivizing mission makers to do certain things, by the older more experienced mission makers, agreeing on a small list of "best practices for mission makers" for performance, looks and gameplay and pin that at the top of the forum? Then any new developer may learn something from that and avoid some rookie mistakes, like for example, not putting enough ways in a level for a player to walk more quietly.

Just my two cents. 

[AluminumHaste]

If the player can walk silently than that defeats a major game mechanic. There has to be a downside to moving quickly.

Realism is not more important in this case.

[Melchior]

Yeah; I'd almost expect an optional 'soft-sole' boots purchasable special equipment option...as the default boots are SUPER-LOUD ON COBBLE. Probably realistic - as rubber soles won't be common (guild Electrical Technician boots?).

[ChronA]

Unless the fashion in Bridgeport is wearing wooden soled clogs, chances is everyone's footwear is already made entirely of leather in the game's setting. If the thief needs quiet shoes they would not be hard to get: just procure a pair of the cheapest, thinnest soled shoes money can buy from the nearest cobbler. That's going to be as quiet as anything short of space age nanotech assassin boots or just going barefoot.

At some point one must accept that footsteps in the Thief games and TDM are a pure gameplay contrivance. Except when walking on gravel, water, snow, dry forest debris, or squeaky wooden flooring it should not be possible to consistently hear any character's footsteps. There is certainly no reason a nobleman's marble dance floor should be louder than the flooring in a pauper's tenement building.

The point isn't realism though. Thief and TDM aren't meant to be realistic burglary simulators. It's a metaphor about social hierarchies. Tile floors are loud because invading the private estates of the elite is dangerous for a commoner. Sewers are loud because wading around in sewage is unpleasant and degrading. Builder, Mechanist, and Watch metal floors are very loud because these are oppressive institutions dedicated to stamping out all independency in their subservient populations. It's about creating tension to tell a compelling story.

I agree that it would be nice to be able to adjust footstep volume for those who find it distracting. In fact, given the importance of sound as a game mechanic, the more granularity of control players have over the volume of different sound sources the better. But once you start trying to relitigate sound volume on the basis of realism there is just no winning.

[kin]

If an adusment knob in sound settings for player footstep loudness is out of question then how about silent boots in the purchuse section of the game before starting. It could be something similar to moss arrows. In terms of gameplay if someone decided to buy them would bring AI hearing a notch down, if not a notch up. Wrong choice would make a mission more difficult just like it happens with all the other tools.

[wesp5]

You can already adjust the hearing of the AI so I don't really understand why we would need changes with the footsteps. Yes, they are loud when running or walking, but most of the time I am crawling in TDM anyway :)!

[kin]

On 5/10/2023 at 1:43 PM, wesp5 said:

You can already adjust the hearing of the AI so I don't really understand why we would need changes with the footsteps. Yes, they are loud when running or walking, but most of the time I am crawling in TDM anyway :)!

How about removing that feature (AI hearing adjustment) and make it a part of the gameplay with the "silent boots" purchase.

[New Horizon]

5 hours ago, kin said:

How about removing that feature (AI hearing adjustment) and make it a part of the gameplay with the "silent boots" purchase.

[snatcher]

I don't think it is bad idea if TDM would have been conceived that way. At the beginning of a mission you can change your gear if you want (and have the coin):

• Default shoes: your everyday footwear.
• Soft boots: a little muffled and you can move a little faster but a bit slippery and you are prone to more damage.
• Hard boots: more noisy and make you move a tad slower but the stability allows you to draw and use your weapons faster and health lasts longer.

This system would have allowed for a wide range of unique and exclusive wearable items such as the (in)famous Jester hood, for the more demanding players.

[kin]

Ok you started making fun of my suggestions. I am moving out.

Edited May 12, 2023 by kin

[snatcher]

I elaborated your suggestion further in the first part.

The irony with the second part is that it could be a fine for-fun mod.

Support for standalone mods that coexist with others is currently limited.

[ChronA]

Correct me if I'm wrong but there's no reason this couldn't be done already if a FM author wanted to include it right? I mean on a technical level...

There might be a discussion to have about the wisdom of locking in difficulty settings at the start of a potentially multi-hour scenario (and making the player spend resources to do it) vs allowing them to be adjusted on the fly, but in principle...

Also I guess this idea could be used to implement item based progression into a level. Like you might not be sneaky enough to infiltrate the watch headquarters until you find soft boots. Iris did some of that sort of thing for thieves tools, but adjusting AI settings would be an interesting variation.

[datiswous]

2 hours ago, snatcher said:

The irony with the second part is that it could be a fine for-fun mod.

I'm still waiting for someone to implement the NOLF2 banana

[snatcher]

7 hours ago, ChronA said:

Also I guess this idea could be used to implement item based progression into a level. Like you might not be sneaky enough to infiltrate the watch headquarters until you find soft boots. Iris did some of that sort of thing for thieves tools, but adjusting AI settings would be an interesting variation.

There's an unreleased mission in which in certain sections guards won't care about you if you wear something.

[Melchior]

Some kind of 'Attack' effectiveness hud icon / crosshair.

E.g.: the default white one turns red if its a Blackjack target that can't be knocked out ( Zombie / Heavy-helm guard), yellow if its dicey or unlikely, green for 100% effective. Same idea for the Sword - as some Undead are  invincible, but others can at least be chopped down (eventually).