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No problem man, but we've visited this topic before, and the number of complaints is actually really low.

Of the number of people who use the mod, it's a handful of people who chime in, maybe 5-6 at the most.

The success of the mod in general indicates that the VAST majority of people do NOT have an issue with the blacjacking, especially since BJing is such a prominent feature of the game.

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There is no safe way to knock someone out in real life. Not with a bump on the head, not with choking. Even using a poison dart dipped in some anaesthetic would not be safe, because anaesthetics need

I find the skill in blackjacking should lie in maneuvering yourself into a position where you can knockout an AI and hide the body without getting detected by other AIs. Once you’re in that position,

Many things in TDM seem minor until you try to make them happen. Most times you sink into quicksand.

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29 minutes ago, Dragofer said:

I find the skill in blackjacking should lie in maneuvering yourself into a position where you can knockout an AI and hide the body without getting detected by other AIs. Once you’re in that position, the blackjack should always function reliably as long as you aim at the head from behind - you shouldn’t have to worry about things like hitting the nape of the neck (without a crosshair) or standing at a certain distance, which I wouldn’t label elements of difficulty but rather potentially frustrating inconveniences. It’d certainly be a case where realism should give way to gameplay.

 100 percent 👍

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I already wrote this here, but I will do it again. All these issues can simply be fixed by removing the knock-out immunity once a guard is alerted which I do in the Unofficial Patch. Thus if you fail to black jack the first time for whatever reason, you have multiple tries until the guard intervenes with their weapon! I usually get the right angle and distance before they can do that :).

Edited by wesp5
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On 7/31/2020 at 11:55 AM, Marbrien said:

Knocking out non-elite helmeted guards when they are standing or walking on an incline seems a lot harder than when they are on the level.

I've found that as well. Also, playing on weak hardware I've come to suspect it's less reliable if the framerate is unsmooth.

It probably is also partly an interface design/feedback question too though: besides the difficulty in judging distance as others mentioned (flat screen, invisible body besides the right arm, needing to adjust your bodily position because your thief can't modify the arc of the swing like in real life) there's the fact that the weapon viewmodel isn't exactly 'there' in the world, even though id Tech 4 lighting does a good job with the illusion.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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When "Always Run" is activated, the "Creep" key has no effect.

"Creep" key shouldn't be dependent of "Always Run" status.

I've tried to tweak the key binding but I don't think it's possible.

set creep1 "seta in_alwaysRun 0; bind < _button5; seta in_alwaysRun 1"
bind "<" "vstr creep1"

 

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Yeah the creep modifier is reduce by 44%, it's only applied to walking speed.

I'm attempting to add code to apply a 44% decrease if creep modifier key is pressed while running, give me a sec to test.

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Well duuuuhhhhh the reason there is none is because that adds the same amount of slowing down as just pressing and holding SHIFT to toggle walking mode.

BTW, you can creep while running by holding down SHIFT key to enter walk mode, then CTRL (on my keybinds) to enter creep mode.

 

Well that worked, I added the same modifier to running but decreases the run speed to only 22%, so you can go from full running to creeping and vise versa.

 

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About the Blackjack thing, i ask myself why it even exists.
In my studies about immersion and realism i came across multiple  voices that clearly said that the blackjack is a murder weapon.

Do people honestly believe that you can safely knock someone out with a heavy stick?

I like the way they do it in dishonored, it is very close to the real world equal and is indeed much more safe.
The Black Jack needs an unrealistic amount of Game magic multiplicator to work.

And the way that you can just bonk everyone on the head from any angle... and they all just fall over safely and fast. That is very very OP.

Can we have more scary Zombie Horror maps?

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Deception :( I just wanted same bindings as Thief 1/2. Each times I switch back to TDM, I run instead of walking and got detected. Because Thief 1/2 bindings are engraved in my head since 20 years.

 

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You can creep while running by holding down SHIFT key to enter walk mode, then CTRL (on my keybinds) to enter creep mode.

It's working but I'm not gonna press 3 keys to walk very slowly, it's not convenient.

 

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Well that worked, I added the same modifier to running but decreases the run speed to only 22%

Happy for you. It would be glad if TDM could work that way. It's really weird that "Creep" is not working when "Always Run" is on.

Edited by Apiai
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So by default, Creep doesn't work when always run is enabled, even if you slow down with the Walk modifier, then press creep, nothing happens.

 

What I added, both those scenarios are fixed.

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34 minutes ago, Apiai said:

It's really weird that "Creep" is not working when "Always Run" is on.


I wouldn't say it's very weird, actually on the contrary. As the name suggests, creep modifies walking, not running. There's no such thing as creep running I think :D

But, you can have keys bound for toggle in_alwaysrun and toggle tdm_toggle_creep, so you toggle creep first, then toggle always run and you switch between the two with toggle in_alwaysrun. I never do that though, the sudden drop in speed between run and creep looks unnatural.

Edited by peter_spy
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It's really weird that "Creep" is not working when "Always Run" is on.

 

Isn't it rather contradictory to try to "creep" and "run" at the same time? 

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26 minutes ago, Springheel said:

 

Isn't it rather contradictory to try to "creep" and "run" at the same time? 

Yes but being able to Creep when crouched and walking when Always Run is enabled is something you would probably want to do.

That doesn't work when Always Run is enabled.

https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=5320

 

Fixed in Trunk.

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Yeah I know what you mean, it's a "logical" point of view. I have a more practical gameplay point of view, I think it's weird because I see "Creep" key more like a "Walk slowly" key rather than a walking speed modifier key. That's how it is in T1/2. I prefer having a single key to walk slowly that isn't a modifier. 

Let me say it in another words : it's really weird that the player don't have a SIMPLE way to walk very slowly when "always run" is on. By simple I mean not press 3 keys at the same time, or use peter_spy method (I've tried but not convenient for me)

Fun fact : the "Creep" key is actually translated as "Walk slowly" in french, which create confusion...

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@AluminumHaste

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Even if you slow down with the walk/run modifier key (SHIFT on my set up) pressing the creep modifier does nothing.

It's working for me, but I have to press 3 keys to creep : forward + walk modifier + creep modifier

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IMO that's more of a personal nitpick than anything else. You can toggle between run and creep if you like, as weird as it looks and feels. Also bear in mind that TDM isn't here to ape everything Thief 1/2 did, it also takes inspiration from other games and tries to do its own thing as well.

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2 hours ago, Filizitas said:

About the Blackjack thing, i ask myself why it even exists.

...

I like the way they do it in dishonored, it is very close to the real world equal and is indeed much more safe.

I fairly doubt that

  1. someone becomes unconscious after a few seconds not beeing able to breathe, I would rather guess that it takes several minutes
  2. that it is "much more safe" to squezze someones trachea.

I am no expert to this, though, so I may be wrong. It doesn't matter much anyways imho, because

Spoiler

it is a game :P

 

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6 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

I fairly doubt that

  1. someone becomes unconscious after a few seconds not beeing able to breathe, I would rather guess that it takes several minutes
  2. that it is "much more safe" to squezze someones trachea.

I am no expert to this, though, so I may be wrong. It doesn't matter much anyways imho, because

  Reveal hidden contents

it is a game :P

 

I agree in part. I have no clue as to how long you need to choke somone out, but I don't think it takes minutes. If done right it definitely is safer than a knock on the head, because you can release your victim in time, without him takin major damage. On the other hand, a choked out person will not stay unconcious for too long. But for the game it does not really matter. In both cases it is a way of taking out guards without killing them. If the choke out would have been the way it is done in Thief, it is very likely that we would have it here as well. But the blackjack was their choice, and so it became the choice here. Apart from that, the blackjack needs a lot less animation work, so it is easier to implement.

2 hours ago, Filizitas said:

About the Blackjack thing, i ask myself why it even exists.
In my studies about immersion and realism i came across multiple  voices that clearly said that the blackjack is a murder weapon.

Do people honestly believe that you can safely knock someone out with a heavy stick?

I like the way they do it in dishonored, it is very close to the real world equal and is indeed much more safe.
The Black Jack needs an unrealistic amount of Game magic multiplicator to work.

And the way that you can just bonk everyone on the head from any angle... and they all just fall over safely and fast. That is very very OP.

Keep in mind that this is no simulation, but a game and suspension of disbelief is a part of that. Of course, the reality of blackjacking would look quite different, but you could also not crouch in the shadows and not be seen by a guard half a meter away or carry the amount of loot the way you do (or weapons for that matter). Or rouse guards and have them just go about their usual way after only a few minutes. If you start to apply realism here, you will not see the end of it.

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I would recommend removing the always run feature.
There is one recent fan mission series basically requiring running long distances to prevent player death by real-time timeout. But there you still can hold down the run key...

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47 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

I would recommend removing the always run feature.

No. If you don't need it, don't use it.

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2 hours ago, Apiai said:

@AluminumHaste

It's working for me, but I have to press 3 keys to creep : forward + walk modifier + creep modifier

Well so it does, I swear I tried that on my desktop and it didn't do anything......Hmmm, well, we'll see if the commit gets rejected then.

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1 hour ago, Destined said:

In both cases it is a way of taking out guards without killing them.

Which doesn't make a difference anyways, except maybe that a knocked out ai doesn't leave a blood pool like on killed via the sword (which only matters if you take them out in a well lit place). Besides that it is purely cosmetic. Those tris on your screen aren't alive, therefore you cannot kill them. :)

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Btw.: Choking is forbidden for police in most countries, at it can quiet easely kill someone. One easely underestimates how much harm can be done by harmless appearing measures.

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10 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

Which doesn't make a difference anyways, except maybe that a knocked out ai doesn't leave a blood pool like on killed via the sword (which only matters if you take them out in a well lit place). Besides that it is purely cosmetic. Those tris on your screen aren't alive, therefore you cannot kill them. :)

Agreed.

10 hours ago, Obsttorte said:

Btw.: Choking is forbidden for police in most countries, at it can quiet easely kill someone. One easely underestimates how much harm can be done by harmless appearing measures.

Also agreed. This is why I wrote "if done correctly" 😉 I don't think that choking someone until he becomes unconcious could be called "harmless appearing", but at least it is more reliable than blunt trauma to the head.

Regarding time needed, I did a bit of searching: You can become unconcious by pressing strongly on the Sinus carotis, which is a blood pressure sensor located on the side of the throat near the larynx. Pressing against it causes the body to believe you have a much too high blood pressure, so it plummets resulting in the brain not getting enough blood. This happens in a couple of seconds. I am not sure, but could imagine that this is what happens when someone gets choked (at least in some cases). In this case it should be quite safe, because it does not require you to crush the trachea, but of course, you have to stop as soon the other person becomes unconciuous. However, as soon as the brain regains regular blood flow, the person will wake up again, so it would also not work to get rid of guards, except you would tie them up and gag them afterwards. So, this is also not much more realistic than blackjacking them...

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