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The End Is Nigh


Sir Taffsalot
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  • 3 weeks later...

I noticed something over at TTLG. People do get interested in Dark Mod stuff when there's something substantive to talk about they can see. Like Shadowhide has been posting his stuff over there, screenshots, and videos... That gives people something substantive to talk about. It's not an agenda, and it's not like a blank Release Thread where there's nothing to talk about if you haven't played it. It's like, here's a video of something cool. What does everyone think? And then they can see it right there, talk about it, and wish they could get Darkmod running to try it.

 

I feel like some of the issue, at least on the TTLG side, is that a lot of the just random discussion is over on these forums, there isn't much just random discussion and screenshots and videos being posted over there, but that would do some to get a ball rolling over there. Out of sight; out of mind.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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there isn't much just random discussion and screenshots and videos being posted over there, but that would do some to get a ball rolling over there. Out of sight; out of mind.

You say that, btu I always post my mission releases and what are you working on over there and i don't get much interest..

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Perhaps this is like neglected child syndrome.

 

They have grown callous and bitter to TDM updates because we don't always mirror all

the cool stuff over there... :unsure:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Yeah, and when things are posted, I mean it should give people something to talk about just from the post itself. Videos of demos are sort of good because you can watch it by itself and think, well that's kind of cool...

 

I don't know. OTOH, I guess it was sort of the same with Thievery, which had its own forum over at Black Cat's. TTLG people were part of it, but a lot of people weren't and it was still its own thing going on "over there".

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Videos of demos are sort of good because you can watch it by itself and think, well that's kind of cool...

 

I posted a link to the gameplay guide video on blackjacking and got not a single response. I'm pretty much done trying to pique the interest of TTLG, personally.

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I posted a link to the gameplay guide video on blackjacking and got not a single response. I'm pretty much done trying to pique the interest of TTLG, personally.

 

Yeah I have to agree, their attitude has always been one of "how dare anyone try to make a thief game/mod, it will never be any good blah blah blah".

I loved your video however. Make more :)

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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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I understand the frustration, but the sticking point is, and has always really been, the fact that the major software one needs to play Thief FMs is already on hard drives, and the software is welcome and wanted before the mod is applied, and for around a decade. Help from established friends and acquaintances is readily available, in an established and known and comfortable system. The Dark Engine, while improvable with mods, is the finalized version. For the settled-in and contented FM lovers, the Dark Mod never seems finished, and doesn't feel familiar enough, and causes TDS flashbacks. It requires foreign and unwanted software, which hasn't been free for most of its life, and for some it hogs resources on old systems. There are veteran taffers playing FMs who've demanded specific versions of FMs for a lack of know-how in getting even vanilla Thief to run on their systems. FM players in large numbers prefer a sense of episodic content to download and load up and go, with no struggle of a new feel, new mechanics, altered basic mechanics, etc. None of this has anything to do with all the hard work and great accomplishments, nor the vision, philosophy, spirit, or unpaid time. It's grossly unfair to you, but you are unfair to categorize the naysayers in ways that don't address what's really at the heart of the snubbing. The Dark Mod is not home sweet home, no matter how marvelous.

 

To the content, you are advertising a redundant product that is fundamentally a different animal, and people don't want unnecessary change. Why is this necessary enough to warrant the learning curve and huge install? In case anyone forgets or doesn't know, I personally have TDM functioning on my own system. Unfortunately, I'm not a gamer, but I have it to beta-test a specific FM when the time comes, by special request and as a favor to a gracious friend.

 

 

 

Those blackjack gameplay vids...I have no idea what I'm supposed to get from them. I see the player blackjacking people, but it doesn't translate the feel, and maybe it's framerate or the speed of the animation, but I can't see the impact sites or sense the zones, so it just looks like action/movement/action.

Edited by jtr7

A skunk was badgered--the results were strong.

I hope that something better comes along.

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Those blackjack gameplay vids...I have no idea what I'm supposed to get from them.

I think I'd have found the video much more helpful than reading the gameplay wiki when I was starting. Seeing what "Don't get too close" means (rather than just reading it) would have saved me huge amounts of blackjacking frustration in my early TDM days :angry:.

I see the player blackjacking people, but it doesn't translate the feel, and maybe it's framerate or the speed of the animation, but I can't see the impact sites or sense the zones, so it just looks like action/movement/action.

Aren't all videos just 'action/movement/action'? Sorry if I'm being dense, but I don't think watching any game video will 'translate the feel' of what it's like to actually play it.

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I understand the frustration, but the sticking point is, and has always really been, the fact that the major software one needs to play Thief FMs is already on hard drives, and the software is welcome and wanted before the mod is applied, and for around a decade. Help from established friends and acquaintances is readily available, in an established and known and comfortable system. The Dark Engine, while improvable with mods, is the finalized version.

 

No offence but this sounds like cave man mentality to me. If everyone took the attitude that if something works right now we should stick with it then we would never evolve. Just because something works it doesn't mean we should stop finding ways to improve it. If everyone took an attitude of 'This works so this is the finalized version' then we would never have left our caves.

 

There are other issues as well. I have seen many people post on TTLG that they have issues with the protagonist not being Garrett. Fair anough but I honestly can't remember the last time I played a Thief FM where I was actually Garrett and the FM auther actually expanded upon the Garrett story or character. It kind of makes the point that people are not happy playing a nameless thief redundent. Also some of the best Thief FMs did not involve Garrett. Rose Cottage i my favourite Thief FM.

 

To the content, you are advertising a redundant product that is fundamentally a different animal, and people don't want unnecessary change.

 

One of the main issues people have over at TTLG was that Deadly Shadows neglected to include too many elements of what made Thief Thief. One of the main concepts of TDM was to create what should have been Deadly Shadows. Should epeople adapt an attitude of 'people aren't making what we want so we should cling to what works from the past?' personally I prefer the attitude of 'if someone's not going to do it for us then let's do it ourselves.'

"I believe that what doesn't kill you simply makes you... stranger"

 

The Joker

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I also disagree with a lot of those reasons jtr7, but I do basically agree that it's still too complicated to set up and get started. Even if it's actually pretty simple, it APPEARS too complicated to the unintiated. Maybe some super simplification would help, like some 1 - 2 - 3 illustrations or SHORT video instruction to get started.

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It is useless, people. It is fucking useless, useless, useless.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Those blackjack gameplay vids...I have no idea what I'm supposed to get from them.

 

Did you have the audio on?

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We don't need the acceptance of the doubters in TTLG. Those, in that community, who are interested in TDM and have the hardware, can easily join our community here.

 

Wasn't TTLG a dying community anyways? (There was some thread somewhere here discussing it, but I can't locate it.)

 

Anyways, it is important to make TDM more visible in the net. When people type 'thief remake' in google, they should get TDM. That is not the case now.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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What are the steps for installing Dark Mod? I only recall install Doom3, download and install TDM. Done. Was there anything more I might miss?? Seriously! This is not ironic - I can't remember :laugh:

 

We don't need the acceptance of the doubters in TTLG. Those, in that community, who are interested in TDM and have the hardware, can easily join our community here.

 

Wasn't TTLG a dying community anyways? (There was some thread somewhere here discussing it, but I can't locate it.)

 

Didn't we just talk about the cave man story? Really people, calm down and don't start a "who is cooler" - war. What's the sense of it? TTLG has it's right to be as TDM has too.

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Didn't we just talk about the cave man story? Really people, calm down and don't start a "who is cooler" - war. What's the sense of it? TTLG has it's right to be as TDM has too.

 

Huh? Just to clarify, I'm calm as a tortoise. Do you mean we somehow *need* the acceptance from the TTLG doubters? Seems like a waste of time trying to convert that lot, methinks. ;)

If it is evident they are not interested, why bother?

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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The way I came to the TDM community & TTLG community is in no way addressed by jtr7's fair, but rather salty post.

 

I was a kid (read: Stephen Russel's voice), interested in mods (having been an administrator of various source engine mod servers). I Googled "Thief mod", after my very favorite game, and first discovered the Dark Mod website for the first time. "Well this is damn cool, but there are only videos, no demos or downloads," I said, slightly disappointed.

 

I secondly lurked on TTLG and simultaneously discovered Thief FMs for the first time. "Well, this, too, is damn cool," I quipped. There was one thread dedicated to the Dark Mod, and two or three veteren members of TTLG were posting childish, narrow-minded, entitled critiques of the most trivial things concerning TDM. "What petty behavior!" I spat.

 

One month later, Thief's Den demo came out. I fell in love with TDM. It emulated the thiefy gameplay I grew attached to. Thief started to look & feel clunky, while still pleasantly nostalgic. I registered on the TDM forums to express said love. I was welcomed with open arms, and within a few months, given an invitation to be a contributor.

 

You see, neither side to me was "an established and known and comfortable system." I met two cute girls and fell in love with one of them, if you excuse the metaphor. The Dark Mod is "home sweet home" and marvelous, and close to my heart, with the precious few drops of sweat I contributed. Don't think that I am neglectful of Thief, though. I am not so callous that I haven't played Rose Cottage or T2X. But it feeds a less and less hungry void.

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I'm starting to think that what might help a lot is to eventually have some kind of simultaneous effort to get the word out.

 

Just looking over the site and what videos are available, it almost seems like the needed material is already available, but it never got presented very well. Most of TDM's exposure to the outside world has been very slow and very spread out.

I don't feel like TDM got the real "release" that a lot of other mods have had. There is bits and pieces of advertising here and there, but most have been presented on their own.

 

It would probably be very far off and longer term, but I don't think it would hurt to start talking about such a thing. Perhaps we could eventually start to see a certain date being appropriate (maybe after an update or campaign release) for a more organized "release date" of sorts.

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I understand the frustration, but the sticking point is, and has always really been, the fact that the major software one needs to play Thief FMs is already on hard drives, and the software is welcome and wanted before the mod is applied, and for around a decade.

 

Help from established friends and acquaintances is readily available, in an established and known and comfortable system.

 

Doom 3 sold 3.5 million copies by 2007. It's also available for Mac and Linux. I don't know the current status of Thief source, but I'm guessing Doom/TDM is much closer to standalone. Doom 3 was released in 2004, so it's been around for nearly 8 years (by August 3). That's close to around a decade. As for Thief being welcomed and wanted, I guess you're done buying (on the cheap) or playing other computer games.

 

The TDM community is established, comfortable, and the members go out of their way to help newcomers, solve technical problems, etc. I'll let others judge how "comfortable" TTLG is, since I haven't paid recent attention.

 

The Dark Engine, while improvable with mods, is the finalized version.

 

For the settled-in and contented FM lovers, the Dark Mod never seems finished, and doesn't feel familiar enough, and causes TDS flashbacks.

 

When TDM 1.0 was released, it was at a point where it had everything that it needed to work. All updates since then are icing on the delicious cake, and if updating TDM is some kind of pain, I must be numb to it.

 

I'm sure you've never played a shit Thief FM. Quality varies, you know that. More talk here of "settling-in" and "familiarity" for a game that has been inspired so much by Thief's gameplay, yet introduces visible improvements, like better mantling. There is no game in the world that is more like Thief I+II, so I guess you shouldn't bother playing Dishonored, Deus Ex, Skyrim, or any other stealth games or new video games period. TDM is so far in up the comfort zone of Thief players, that I just don't believe that these "contented FM lovers" either exist or aren't lost causes. Repeat after me, TDM is like TG+TMA, not TDS. Maybe these TDS victims need treatment for PTSD if they are having flashbacks.

 

It requires foreign and unwanted software, which hasn't been free for most of its life, and for some it hogs resources on old systems.

 

Are you secretly RMS? Thief has also not been free for most of its life. Last time I checked, it technically wasn't. And I don't see myself firing up vanilla Doom 3. TDM is a total conversion the last time I checked, and I haven't had to see the workings of Doom 3 since ever. You can even hide the Doom 3 shortcut on the desktop if you wanted to.

 

I play on a dual-core laptop. I wonder what would happen if these old systems try and run King's Story or Lord Alan's Factory or Mission X. You heard it here last: you need a better computer to run Thief.

 

I won't tell potentially poor people that they need to buy a new computer for the sake of gaming, but I'll just point out that the self-fulfilling prophecy of Moore's law has delivered in the 11-12+ years since Thief was released. If I'm not mistaken, today's consumer-oriented systems rival or at least approach the world's fastest supercomputers from November 2000. A new computer a decade sounds good enough for somebody.

 

There are veteran taffers playing FMs who've demanded specific versions of FMs for a lack of know-how in getting even vanilla Thief to run on their systems. FM players in large numbers prefer a sense of episodic content to download and load up and go, with no struggle of a new feel, new mechanics, altered basic mechanics, etc.

 

TDM is an easier to set up and play than Thief. 1.08 and future updates will make it even easier.

 

We have serialized campaigns, campaigns, and the Crucible campaign is coming. The "struggle" of a new feel is pretty much nonexistent for Thief "FM players in large numbers". It's much easier than introducing the game to say, non-gamers or non-stealth-gamers. If you are a Thief FM player who can't get TDM mechanics, you may want to tell someone about it, on the forums.

 

It's grossly unfair to you, but you are unfair to categorize the naysayers in ways that don't address what's really at the heart of the snubbing. The Dark Mod is not home sweet home, no matter how marvelous.

 

Thief is not home sweet home, no matter how marvelous. You said it yourself, the Dark Engine is the "finalized version" (ignoring OPDE et al). It's an aged, closed source game with declining FM output and the glory days seem to be long gone (disclosure: I haven't checked the new FMs for a couple of months to look for any bombshell missions).

 

To the content, you are advertising a redundant product that is fundamentally a different animal, and people don't want unnecessary change. Why is this necessary enough to warrant the learning curve and huge install? In case anyone forgets or doesn't know, I personally have TDM functioning on my own system. Unfortunately, I'm not a gamer, but I have it to beta-test a specific FM when the time comes, by special request and as a favor to a gracious friend.

 

We are advertising a better product that is by now more fun to play, allows mappers to do much more. Sure, we can't to do anything for people who are too far entrenched in the comfort zone. Ignoring the old and broken talk about the learning curve, TDM is indeed a large game, but isn't anything special compared to Thief. TDM isn't DVD-sized, some of the FMs are smaller (and assets being added to the core mod explain some of that), and it's easy to burn through hard disk playing Thief FMs. I've got 5+ GB of Thief FMs on my hard drive right now.

 

Those blackjack gameplay vids...I have no idea what I'm supposed to get from them. I see the player blackjacking people, but it doesn't translate the feel, and maybe it's framerate or the speed of the animation, but I can't see the impact sites or sense the zones, so it just looks like action/movement/action.

 

You can always load up the game and play an FM. Use quicksave and quickload to beat up on an AI for a handful of times. An effort of maybe 60-120 seconds. As if that wasn't already trivial, we have a Blackjack Trainer map. It's on the in-game downloader and we recommend that to anybody who talks about having trouble blackjacking.

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I'm not sure all those rebuttals are very helpful jaxa. Your points seem pretty good for the most part (not all, but most), but I think jtr7's main point is that there is a PERCEPTION of these problems, not that they are all real actual problems.

 

If we yell and insist that people are idiots for not understanding stuff that doesn't help people understand the stuff. It's our job to simplify, clarify, make it super easy and especially APPEAR easy.

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