New players: How did you deal with "that guard" the first time? (Spoiler Warning: Tears of St. Lucia)

[Springheel]

It's not an engine bug. It happens if you use a readable entity and don't provide any xdata for it.

[Araneidae]

It's not an engine bug. It happens if you use a readable entity and don't provide any xdata for it.

 

Do you not consider the extravagant reaction of the game engine a bug? Otherwise the system is too brittle.

[Springheel]

There are lots of things mappers can do that will result in a mission having problems. It's not feasible for coders to try to anticipate everything a mapper could do wrong and make sure the code works anyway.

 

Normally something like the books would have been caught during playtesting, but Biker was updating at least half a dozen maps for 2.0, so the problem probably slipped through.

[Obsttorte]

There are lots of things mappers can do that will result in a mission having problems.

Amen.

[lowenz]

Alternative route? What? :|

 

I use the sewers exiting the area, they can be used to enter??? Where's the key?

 

[ezze]

I tried few alternate routes, but I only got stuck in the border of the map Walking on the wires to reach the roof over the entrance seems so obvious, but actually there is nothing (literally, there is the map border).

By the way is there a way to open the hatch one of the first buildings outside?

 

About the topic, noisemaker and blackjack.

[Garrett2014]

Ok Well being a NEW player of the dark mod having only just discovered it at the tail end of last year I have a fresh insight for you ! I found that the guard was too hard to bypass. End off. However it was this difficulty which made me persaver ? untill I found the alternate route ! Initially after first playing the game, i was experiancing the 'folder issue' so i couldnt save my game and after repeated attempts and deaths trying to get that guard i gave up :/ I almost uninstalled ! I also managed too miss the tavern ! so didnt have that first breadcrumb but a few weeks later returned to the game and after a few nights playing and 'sorting' my install managed to find the second breadcrumb, by accident, that lead me to the jug. I knew the map, well the part i was stuck in, quite well by then so i made good progress after that. Too good i'd say. The mission then became too easy :/ I also found the spider, an off branch of the alternate route, and its scared the poop out off me. Overall I thought the map was great, The mission is too hard for beginners too the game though ! although i suspect most will be ex thief fans so no need too worry there, well not too much . Offcourse we do want a new user base. I would maybe suggest a new mission as the first mission one a little easier and with more loot and areas that can be raided rather than altering this mission. I tryed to imagine how the map would have played if i had got past that guard and i think it would not have been as good as the alternate route So ... Maybe some minor tweaking to the start area , maybe more than one method to access the alternate route ? As it is the 'diffiulty' almost made me uninstall and that would have been a shame as the rest of the mission was a lot of fun. The jug physics were a pain however. Sometimes i got it no bother and other times I took ages to .. well i wont spoil it any further ! St Lucia is a GREAT mission. Very much in the thief style and feel.Maybe that initial difficulty helps make it great but maybe it shouldnt be the first mission for a new player!

Edited January 16, 2014 by Garrett2014

[Pod]

If you want some feedback from a noob:

 

I completely overlooked the tavern. I saw two fake doors to my left and immediately assumed the door in the alcove was also a fake door. I assumed everything on the street was fake, because e.g. the shovel couldn't be picked up (like it could in the tutorial). I found the padlocked grate, the secret room above and spent a long time trying to jump into the pipes above the hobo. I then found the guard, spent a while jumping around the tree (you can clip out of the map by jumping on the tree or the overhang near the tree). It was only then that I doubled back and eventually stumbled upon the tavern.

 

I think you should flag the tavern more. Put a torch in the alcove and leave the door open?

 

Other than that I enjoyed the map, even though the game claimed two guards saw me (when they charged in after I destroyed the statue?) and that I killed someone. (I suspect when I dropped the priest face first into the water in the sewer he quickly drowned before I could turn him over?).

[c0mputer-fr0d]

I shot a noisemaker past him and then went behind him and knocked him out. I was on normal ai difficulty I don't think I could still do that now with my current ai settings.

[MasterHelpo]

I just watched a new 2.0 Lets Play where someone used a noisemaker and then KO'd the guard when he was checking it out.

 

I did that as well in my run of it actually, couldn't be bothered to use the alternate route for the sake of timekeeping.

Edited March 4, 2014 by MasterHelpo

[DeusXIncognita]

Oh "That Guard" made me angry. I am not sure what exactly ist meant with the "first time" if its the first time I encountered him, or the first time I relly got past him for future play.

Normally I try to sneak past the opposition, but while looking for a way past that guy he saw me (Must have misstepped). I didn't know about a alternative route at that point, and I didn't even know where that way led. After looking for a way past him at the machinery in the ground and the boxes a bit before him, I seemed to have angered him again (probably some noise or too much jumping), and killed him (not the last time of that, because he got on my nerves) to at least find out where that way led.

Which was the point where I found out that THIS was the mentioned heavily guarded entrance, I was expecting something obviously churchy at that point (Since then I have at least learned the limitations of Darkmod and know WHY that architecture was hidden).

I spent much time after that trying to jump up in the hole where the homeless man lives, figuring out more controls, playing training again, and running around at the rest of the level for much time, because I didn't find anything.

Finally I needed a hint from outside to find out that

 

a) the first door in the dark was openable (someone already mentioned it in the thread, but after the first few I tested where closed, I assumed the rest were too (I fI even saw it, can't remember, I might have had not so wonderful gamme / brightness settings at that time)

where I was supposed to find the key

 

Afterwards I continued what I had begun before, which is rumaging through the city part of the mission (which is my favourite part), finding out various ways to get on top of buildings, finding all sort of hints that would finally have brought me to the location of the key, And also finding out that hiding things, where the level architecture was flawed already (seeing skybox all the way down, missing renderings etc.), was okay for that level.

THEN I used the alternate route to finally play the main part of the mission.

 

So now you can decide what of that my FIRST is^^

I have got a long way with darkmod, and thinking like the mission designers (never played Fan missions before), since then, but for my first time it was quite frustrating experience.

[Diego]

I totally didn't see him. I kept in mind that the entrance would be well guarded but I didn't know that small corridor was the entrance. I was expecting something a little bigger, maybe double doors, standing guards etc.

[At0mic]

I figured there must be an alternate path as it was impossible to sneak past him. Even when I found the tunnels though, it took a while before I realised that there was a patch of water that you could swim into, as opposed to some puddles.

[Wallace]

I didnt, he dealt with me. g

[Antsan]

I found the tavern immediately and spent quite a while looking for the key before I was able to find it. Took me a while to get that key.

 

There are lots of things mappers can do that will result in a mission having problems. It's not feasible for coders to try to anticipate everything a mapper could do wrong and make sure the code works anyway.

 

Normally something like the books would have been caught during playtesting, but Biker was updating at least half a dozen maps for 2.0, so the problem probably slipped through.

Isn't that what bug reports are for?

[avkward]

I find this mission incredibly frustrating and it's alarming that is has been called the best. The first part of mission (just getting in) took me more than the rest and it was way more trouble than it's worth.

 

Map doesn't show clearly enough where you are at the start (yeah, you can figure it out later). That prick just outright attacks you without any warning and even gladly leaves his post to chase you around the slums. The city itself looks like it was designed for climbing buildings with all those low hanging vines and clothes and what not, but in fact it isn't. You actually can get to the rooftop right over the entrance and you'd expect there to be a path inside the church, but there is none. The letter of such delicate matters being just left inside some tavern makes no sense, especially when the woman who apparently received and read the letter already works in another tavern; leaving answer and key in yet different places makes no sense as well. The street is filled with trash, but there is not a stone around when you actually need one. Pot won't budge from an arrow and even old boot won't be enough to move it. It's actually easier to climb and take it down. Yet another letter mentions dead dog, wheel and arrows - I found a wheel and a blood spot, but no arrows not there, nor in the apartment where they where supposed to be hidden. Sewers are fine but there are no hints for that hole and it frankly doesn't make much sense as well.

 

All in all, I'd say there are too many meaningless and distracting details on the streets, not enough space for exploration, too restrictive solutions and too apparent rails.

[Springheel]

I find this mission incredibly frustrating and it's alarming that is has been called the best.

 

Where is it called "the best"? I certainly don't think it's anywhere near the best TDM mission out there. It just happens to be one created by the entire team, and is a good introduction to a number of the things that make TDM different from Thief.

 

Map doesn't show clearly enough where you are at the start (yeah, you can figure it out later).

 

Map isn't supposed to show where you are at start. It's a map of the Church, not the town.

 

 

That prick just outright attacks you without any warning and even gladly leaves his post to chase you around the slums.

 

Of course he attacks you. What would you like him to do?

 

As for no warning, he specifically plays a conversation as you approach, so that you know there is someone there. Once you hear him, you can easily creep closer and see his shadow, so you know exactly where he is before he can see you.

 

 

The city itself looks like it was designed for climbing buildings with all those low hanging vines and clothes and what not, but in fact it isn't.

 

There are at least three secret areas you can climb to.

 

The letter of such delicate matters being just left inside some tavern makes no sense, especially when the woman who apparently received and read the letter already works in another tavern;

 

It is the tavern she works at, which is why

the pot is in a window

of that tavern. Why is it left lying around? Who knows? Maybe she dropped it while she was working and someone put it there.

 

leaving answer and key in yet different places makes no sense as well.

 

The Fleece is where John hangs out, so he asked her to leave the note nearby. She works in the Bear and Belcher, so that's where she put the key. It makes perfect sense.

 

Pot won't budge from an arrow

 

There are at least a dozen LPs of people shooting it down with an arrow.

 

Yet another letter mentions dead dog, wheel and arrows - I found a wheel and a blood spot, but no arrows not there, nor in the apartment where they where supposed to be hidden.

 

Maybe you're not reading carefully enough. The note specifically says that the arrows are

hidden and that they're NOT hidden in the apartment.

 

 

All in all, I'd say there are too many meaningless and distracting details on the streets, not enough space for exploration, too restrictive solutions and too apparent rails.

 

So you're complaining about rails but at the same time complaining that things aren't spelled out clearly enough for you. Too many meaningless details but not enough space for exploration. Clear enough.

 

Welcome to the forums.

[avkward]

Where is it called "the best"? I certainly don't think it's anywhere near the best TDM mission out there. It just happens to be one created by the entire team, and is a good introduction to a number of the things that make TDM different from Thief.

 

Well, it was the only mission preloaded in my TDM install besides training, and called "Community Favorite" in introduction. I'm sorry if my expectations were too high.

 

Map isn't supposed to show where you are at start. It's a map of the Church, not the town.

 

I could agree with you if map was some sort of advertising booklet issued by the Church itself. It is however sketch and imply some previous homework done by our PC. In this situation an "X" mark at the place where we enter this district wouldn't do any harm and for instance I was anticipating it.

 

What would you like him to do?

 

To warn poor and desperate passerby that church is closed and she should return in the morning. I think even guards at the mansion entrance in the first TDP/TG mission could do this, it is strange that the Church has more aggressive policies and has less common sense than hired missionaries.

 

Once you hear him, you can easily creep closer and see his shadow, so you know exactly where he is before he can see you.

 

Refresh my memory, you spend how many nanoseconds in the real world each day? © Why would you attack a guard standing in the street outside of an entrance when you are trying to be subtle? And more importantly, why would you expect him to attack you for no reason? You know, he is a guard, not a thug, and guards' job usually is to prevent you from breaking inside, not from approaching the building, especially if that's a church or another public service.

 

There are at least three secret areas you can climb to.

 

Fine, it may be that my skills are yet not as good and that's why I failed miserably, but I tried to climb each and every structure, because they all felt so attractive and yet I got only on one rooftop (over the entrance), where there was nothing rewarding (I think there might have been an arrow or something like that), an apartment mentioning that poor dog and an attic with collapsed roof, which you still were not supposed to climb through. Oh, and there was a hole in the ceiling in that room with a poor man and a fireplace, but I couldn't climb it.

 

So you're complaining about rails but at the same time complaining that things aren't spelled out clearly enough for you. Too many meaningless details but not enough space for exploration. Clear enough.

 

Nope, I think everything was spelled clearly enough (well, maybe apart from the name of the pub, which it was referred by in the letter. If it was important, it should really have been mentioned in the map), but there were not enough of this stuff. You see, by meaningless details I mean just graphics, not the story, - all the trash on the streets, attractive vines and clothes, supporting blocks for buildings and so on, - everything that lead me to believe that this area was more important, than it really was. If the path to the church entrance wouldn't be so long and filled with different things, I wouldn't try to get there, just like in the first mission of TG, where you go through the streets, but everything is closed and clearly not meant for you to explore. On the other hand, if everything looks so attractive for climbing and filled with details, I expect it to be available for me to explore, and I expect some rewards for doing so. Just like in later TG mission (was it Assasins?) where you get to wander around the city again, but this time all the rooftops and back-alleys are available for you. Also, generally the harder it is to get somewhere, the more reward I expect. It was pretty hard and not obvious to get on the only rooftop I got and yet I didn't find anything useful, even though this place by it's location clearly suggested alternative path inside the church.

 

That said, I'm sorry for my ranting, I guess the balance between openness/story/gameplay is a matter of taste and is influenced by previous experience.

[RJFerret]

One thing that might help is when you do a mission that includes a mirror and see how you are attired. There's a reason some characters look at you and scream "Thief" as they attack, it's being dressed all in black, most your face covered to hide your identity, weapon at your side, gloves on, shuttered lamp hanging on your belt, not appearing like a respectable member of society at all. You'll note they react to respectable members of society differently, beggars differently, etc.

 

You'll also note there's a character or two in that mission who don't attack, but greet you.

 

The player is also warned beforehand to seek another way, since the entrance is heavily guarded.

 

In other missions, you might find citizens who don't attack, but accept your presence, however they are rare.

[Rainiero]

He didn't bothered me at all! I just appeared before him so that he recognized me, then I ran away back to the street. He followed me, but I was faster. So I could hide in the shadows and he passed me. The way was free to enter the inner courtyard. That's it!

[Dunbaratu]

My frustration with this level was that even if you try to do the alternate route correctly to avoid the guard and follow the clues it's still not really workable because one of the steps you have to accomplish to access the alternate route seems to be based on the random luck of the physics engine happening to do something differently than it usually does, so you have to try again and again until finally the luck breaks your way on ... uh... the thing you have to do that it would be a spoiler to mention what it is. I spent about half an hour trying again and again and again until finally the physics engine reacted ... uh..... differently than it usually does. I can't reallay say more without a spoiler, but people who've done the alternate route probably know what I mean.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Dunbaratu

[SteveL]

Heh Dunbaratu. This whole thread is a spoiler so it's probably safe to discuss your problem here. For future ref though you can put spoilers in your post by using spoiler tags ike this:

[spoiler] hidden text [/spoiler]

 

which gives:

 

hidden text

 

 

So what was the problem? I replayed St Lucia too recently, using the alternative path, but I can't think which spot you're talking about.

[buck28]

The first time I tried to distract him, but it didn't seen to work. (shooting arrows past him) Don't remember even having a flash bomb with me. I don't usually buy those. Anyhow, I got in through the alternate route. When I came out of the church, at the end; he wasn't even at his station. Too bad, because at that point, I wanted a piece of him...

[Springheel]

one of the steps you have to accomplish to access the alternate route seems to be based on the random luck of the physics engine happening to do something differently than it usually does, so you have to try again and again until finally the luck breaks your way on ... uh... the thing you have to do that it would be a spoiler to mention what it is. I spent about half an hour trying again and again and again until finally the physics engine reacted

 

No idea what you're referring to. The alternate route is pretty straightforward.

[Airship Ballet]

I think he means the slight chance to fall down the passage in the sewers while running around the corner since you're bound to think you're on the right path already. I only found that by falling down it too; it was really cruelly hidden thanks to the constant water level.

Edited April 15, 2014 by Airship Ballet