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I'm pleased if I have several ways to choose one. As a mapper, I think complete non-linearity is a bit of a mess. Sure, gamers enjoy it, but it is hard to keep control over how the mission feels and plays if you leave everything up for the player.

 

The warehouse mission in T2 is just a starting mission which does neither contain much story nor tension, it's just pue fun. Later missions are more focused, though. If you think about the missions in the pagan area for example (this forest like stuff), you may recognize that it wasn't as non-linear as you may have kept it in mind.

 

As a mapper you always have to think about what you are trying to achieve, and how you could do so the best way. The right weight between linearity and non-linearity is just one point here.

 

A good example for games that tend to be too non-linear are all those open world games that seem to be so very trendy these days.

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WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

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Just thought i'd open up a new thread for Thief 4, the "trash" thread seemed a bit prejudged for general discussions and announcements about the game. 50% off on Steam atm: http://store.steampo...com/

Ah, the bugs in that game... *excited voice* The bugs, man, the bugs...   My personal favourite video about the character glitches and lackluster AI is this one:    

I outlined a version that was even more open, where there's not only a totally open procedural city to ransack, but you can buy your own warehouses, ships, mansion, and guards against other thieves, a

Man oh man they're using the idTech5 engine I am in paradise!

 

Assuming that press release is legit. There's reason to be skeptical.

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What has Dishonored has to do with idTech? Didn't Dishonored use a custom engine?

 

If there will be a successor (what I hope for, the game was great), I think they should stick to their engine. They can use the old one with some better textures etc., as I think the comic look is pretty good in disguising lacks of "eye-candy". And the game ran well on my pc, so from my side, no need for a new engine.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Dishonored used a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3, I thought.

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I'm pleased if I have several ways to choose one. As a mapper, I think complete non-linearity is a bit of a mess. Sure, gamers enjoy it, but it is hard to keep control over how the mission feels and plays if you leave everything up for the player.

 

The warehouse mission in T2 is just a starting mission which does neither contain much story nor tension, it's just pue fun. Later missions are more focused, though. If you think about the missions in the pagan area for example (this forest like stuff), you may recognize that it wasn't as non-linear as you may have kept it in mind.

 

As a mapper you always have to think about what you are trying to achieve, and how you could do so the best way. The right weight between linearity and non-linearity is just one point here.

 

A good example for games that tend to be too non-linear are all those open world games that seem to be so very trendy these days.

 

Open world has its own strengths and weaknesses, but that's a bit beyond the scope of this comparison.

 

I have no delusions that T1 and T2 always avoided being linear. They didn't. The final level in T1 is a great example, where occasional choices masked a very, very straight path to the final destination. However, I think the missions in T4 suffered from this far more often, and I never got the sense of freedom that I often felt in the earlier games. Maybe this wasn't as big a deal for others, but it was a major sticking point for me. And entirely linear sequences like running into the burning building (and then out of it again at the end) were basically scripted cutscenes where they let you push a few buttons. It wasn't fun at all.

 

So no, you're right, the warehouse level wasn't a huge driver of tension or plot, but it WAS great fun. Small sections of T4 managed to approximate this feeling occasionally, but never really got there imo.

Edited by Digi

"Fancy burricks are afraid of dogs, if they encounter each other the dog barks and the burricks poop." - Thief: Deadly Shadows Game Designer

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Dishonored used a heavily modified version of Unreal Engine 3, I thought.

Not too much ("heavily modified") :D

Edited by lowenz

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And entirely linear sequences like running into the burning building (and then out of it again at the end) were basically scripted cutscenes where they let you push a few buttons. It wasn't fun at all.

Yeah, scenes like that ruined it for me, too. But not becaquse they are linear, but though to there scripted action style, which does not fit in the thief franchise imho.

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Arkane Studios, owned by Zenimax.

id software, owned by Zenimax.

Yeah, but that's more of a "six degrees of separation" sort of thing. It's a bit of a loose connection, and awfully presumptuous to assume all gaming studios owned by Zenimax happen to use the same technology as one particular gaming studio owned by Zenimax.

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I don't think anyone is presuming that all gaming studios owned by Zenimax must use the same technology. He was simply pointing out the connection between the new dishonored and idtech5. In reality though, I suspect that Zenimax encourages their companies to use inhouse solutions, rather than dish cash to license from another company. There would have to be financial benefits to using idtech5.

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I don't think anyone is presuming that all gaming studios owned by Zenimax must use the same technology. He was simply pointing out the connection between the new dishonored and idtech5. In reality though, I suspect that Zenimax encourages their companies to use inhouse solutions, rather than dish cash to license from another company. There would have to be financial benefits to using idtech5.

 

yep just like EA is making all their teams use the Frostbite engine, i think this is a clever move that way they all differentiate themselves and cut on having to buy third party engines.

Not good for third party engine developers tho.

Edited by HMart
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Given Crytek seems to be in financial woes after the flop of Ryse, flop of another thing they had going, and less than spectacular uptake of CE3, I wonder, if things get any worse, if one of the big guys ends up buying CE off them?

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Given Crytek seems to be in financial woes after the flop of Ryse, flop of another thing they had going, and less than spectacular uptake of CE3, I wonder, if things get any worse, if one of the big guys ends up buying CE off them?

 

What you mean is Warface, the next big uber thing with regards to F2P FPS games. Well, judging from reviews it was bad indeed, so no wonder that Crytek is in trouble. Also, they definitely lost me as a potential buyer since Crysis 1 - I hate American propaganda, and I will never ever shell out any money to actually pay for it infecting my brain. To bad for the talented German programmers, but if they are that good, they'll find other jobs in the industry.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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crytek's problems started when they signed themselves up to making exclusive games for microsoft consoles, most games companies seem to die due to money problems when they do this, the only ones to survive are the ones that get signed up via their publishing company to make games for microsoft. Although some of them have gone as well.

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There are two parts of a very in-depth, well reasoned critique up on Sneaky Bastards:

 

Thief is Mark of the Ninja without the scope for expressiveness and creativity, where the restrictions of the latter encouraged you to come up with your own ways around a problem, to improvise. Restrictions in the former just lead to compliance; the options available offer little scope for interactions that haven’t already been explicitly accounted for.

 

In Thief, your scope for intentional play is limited to those options the game has explicitly made available. You can’t climb up to gain a height advance and the increased situational awareness that provides unless some part of the scenery has been marked as climbable or a Rope arrow anchor point has been placed nearby; there’s no stacking of crates to create your own way out of an area. The solutions you devise to the challenges you encounter will rarely be ones you have come up with through creativity and experimentation, but pre-existing ones you have located within the environment.

 

There are elements, like swoop, that smartly engage with the underlying stealth systems and can be used in multiple non-prescriptive ways, but your core interactions with the environment, and the tools available, have been designed with a much less open “lock and key” mentality, where each environmental problem has a predefined range of solutions. Sometimes, you simply can’t do something if you don’t have the necessary tool.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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I finally installed Thief, and just played it for 2 hours, and actually, i'm pretty surprised how much like it. I would even go as far as to say that it's a pretty good game from what i have seen so far. I like the style, i like the visuals, i like the atmosphere. It all fits pretty well. On one hand, it's a pretty modern game in terms of visual indications, and taking the player by the hand (which is IMO not necessarily a bad thing, considering the complexity of it's nature compared to non demanding action titles for example, and the often distracting visuals in modern games, which could make you miss important aspects of the game), on the other hand, it catches quite a bit of the vibe of the classic Thief games. Not that i want to say that it is like these, actually IMO, it would have been a mistake if they would have strived to make it as close as possible to these, as a game developer, you probably can only lose when going that way, because picky people will always find things which aren't authentic enough. One thing i didn't really like too much was the "Thief challenge" with that wicked chick at the start. That was a bit too much aimed at the younger generation of gamers. ;) Didn't really fit to the more adult general style of the game.

 

Anyway, so much for my first little summary of my impressions, probably too early to make a final call, but so far, it really caught me. Usually i take a break after half an hour, or an hour of playing, if the game doesn't thrill me enough. Didn't happen here, and that's a good sign. :)

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picky people will always find things which aren't authentic enough.

I dunno, dude, if I was drunk the first time I was shown Xenonauts, the person showing me could have convinced me it was XCOM. It looks better, plays better and lasts longer but also feels exactly like the older games. Devs sometimes pick up on the wrong thing when they try to recreate a classic, usually the aesthetic, but it's the ones who really took in what made it special and carried that over into their own project that have made great games.

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The thing with cult games like the Thief series is that people WILL be very picky with them, as there are certian aspects which made them cult games, like the atmosphere, the gameplay, the sound and all that. Now take a reboot like this, and the graphics will be different, the gameplay will be slightly different, the music will be different, Garrett has another voice, and people will pick on all these points. I rather approach as a new game, and with that persepctive, it's pretty damn good actually. At least good enough for me, to get me thrilled. Of course everyone is entitled to disagree with that, fair enough. But IMO, prejudging it by the points i just made won't do it justice. Just like with the reboot of Deus Ex. There are many things which differ to the first part, but still, it has the Deux Ex feeling to it, even though there's many aspects of a modern game to it.

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It's not an issue of things being "different". It's that they're (in many cases) worse.

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I think i had a similar discussion about TDS on ttlg once. :) Anyway, with worse you can't mean the technical side, because of course a 2014 game will be better on the technical side (graphics, sound, UI) than a 10 years plus old game. So if you talk about the gameplay then, it's highly subjective. What you consider as worse, i can consider as better. I wouldn't say it's better than the old Thief games, how can you compare that anyway, you always have to put it in context to the time it was released too, but it's a very good game by today's standards IMO. But then, that's arguing about taste, and makes no sense. Let's just say i really like playing it. And i also like the Thief games. If you don't like it, that's cool, but regarding that it already got ripped in pieces years before it was even released, let's just say i suspect a little bias. ^_^ Judging from what i read here and over at ttlg, i really thought the game was the biggest crap ever produced, but in fact it's far from it. IMO (how many times did i say "in my opinion" now? :P)

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