[Feature Proposal] Frob to Use World Item

[Daft Mugi]

Complaint From Players

The player must pick up candles before extinguishing them, and then the player must remember to drop the candle. The player must drag a body before shouldering it (picking it up), and the player must remember to frob again to stop dragging the body. The player finds this annoying or easy to make mistakes.

For players who ghost, some of them have the goal of returning objects back to their original positions. With the current "pick up, use item, and drop" system, the item might not return easily or at all to its original position. For example, a candlestick might bounce off its holder.

(See player quotes at the bottom.)

Bug Tracker

https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316

Problems to Solve

• How can the "pick up" step be eliminated so that the player can directly use or interact with the item where it is in the game world?
• How can so much key pressing and mouse clicking be eliminated when the player wants to directly use an item?
• How can candles be extinguished and lanterns toggled off/on without first picking them up?
• How can bodies be shouldered without first dragging them?

Solution Design Goals

• Make TDM easier for new players while also improving it for longtime players.
• Reduce tedious steps for common frob interactions.
• Make it intuitive so that menu settings are unnecessary.
• Do not introduce bugs or break the game.

Terms

• frob -- the frob button action happens instantly.
• hold frob -- the frob button is held for 200ms before the action happens. (This can be changed via cvar: 200ms by default.)

Proposed Solution

Note: Some issues have been struckthrough to show changes since the patch has been updated.

Change how frobbing works for bodies, candles, and lanterns.

For bodies:

• Frob to shoulder (pick up) a body. Second frob to drop shouldered body, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc.
• Hold frob (key down) to start drag, continue to hold frob (key down) to drag body, and then release frob (key up) to stop dragging body.
• Also, a body can be dragged immediately by holding frob and moving the mouse.

For candles/lanterns:

• Frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns.
• Hold frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
• Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
• Hold frob to extinguish candles and toggle off/on lanterns.

For food:

• Frob to pick it up, and then frob again to drop.
• Hold frob to eat food.

For other items:

• No change.

New cvar

"tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"200"                                                              
The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or extinguish.
Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

Solution Benefits

Bodies:

• New players will have less to learn to get started moving knocked out guards.
  • With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players have played several missions before realizing that they could shoulder a body instead of dragging it long distances.
• Frob to shoulder body matches Thief, so longtime Thief players will find it familiar.
• Second frob drops a shouldered body.
• Players still have the ability to both shoulder and drag bodies.
• Compatible with the new auto-search bodies feature.
• Dragging feels more natural -- just grab, hold, and drop with a single button press. There is no longer the need to press the button twice. Also, it's no longer possible to walk away from a body while unintentionally dragging it.
• Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

Candles:

• New players will have less to learn to get started extinguishing candles.
  • With TDM v2.11 and earlier, some players didn't know they could extinguish candles by picking them up and using them. Instead, they resorted to throwing them to extinguish them or hiding them.
• Hold frob to extinguish a candle feels like "pinching" it out.
• Once a candle is picked up, players still have the ability to manipulate and use them the same way they are used to in TDM v2.11 and earlier.
• For players who ghost and have the goal of putting objects back to their original positions, they'll have an easier time and not have to deal with candles popping off their holders when trying to place them back carefully.
• Set "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar to delay of 0 to restore TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

Solution Issues

Bodies:

• Frob does not drop a shouldered body, so that might be unexpected for new players. This is also different than Thief where a second frob will drop a body.
  • "Use Inv. Item" or "Drop Inv. Item" drops the body. This is the same as TDM v2.11 and earlier.
  • This is the price to pay for being able to frob (open/close) doors while shouldering a body.
  • Patch was updated to drop body on second frob, while allowing frob on doors, switches, etc.

Candles:

• Picking up a candle or lantern requires a slight delay, because the player must hold the frob button.
• The player might unintentionally extinguish a candle while moving it if they hold down frob.
  • The player will need to learn that holding frob will extinguish the candle.
  • The player can change the delay period via the "tdm_frobhold_delay" cvar. Also, when the cvar is set to a delay of 0, the behavior matches TDM v2.11 and earlier, meaning the player would have to first "Frob/Interact" to pick up the candle and then press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish it.
• Some players might unintentionally extinguish a candle when they are trying to move it or pick it up.
  • They need to make sure to hold frob to initiate moving the candle.
• When a candle is unlit, it will highlight but do nothing on frob. That might confuse players.
  • However, the player will likely learn after extinguishing several candles that an unlit candle still highlights. It makes sense that an already-extinguished candle cannot be extinguished on frob.
• The official "Training Mission" might need to have its instructions updated to correctly guide the player through candle manipulation training.
• Updating the training mission to include the hold frob to extinguish would probably be helpful.

Similar Solutions

• In Fallout 4, frob uses an item and long-press frob picks it up.
• Goldwell's mission, "Accountant 2: New In Town", has candles that extinguish on frob without the need of picking them up first.
• Snatcher's TDM Modpack includes a "Blow / Ignite" item that allows the player to blow out candles
• Wesp5's Unofficial Patch provides a way to directly extinguish movable candles by frobbing.

 

Demonstration Videos

Note: The last two videos don't quite demonstrate the latest patch anymore. But the gist is the same.

This feature proposal is best experienced in game, but some demonstration videos are better than nothing.

The following videos show either a clear improvement or that the player is not slowed down with the change in controls. For example, "long-press" sounds long, but it really isn't.

Video: Body Shouldering and Dragging

The purpose of this video is to show that frob to shoulder a body is fast and long-press frob to drag a body is fast enough and accurate.

Video: Long-Press Frob to Pick Up Candle

The purpose of this video is to show how the long-press frob to pick up a candle isn't really much slower than regular frob.

Video: Frob to Extinguish

The purpose of this video -- if a bit contrived -- is to show the efficiency and precision of this proposed feature.

The task in the video was for the player to as quickly and accurately as possible extinguish candles and put them back in their original positions.

On the left, TDM v2.11 is shown. The player has to highlight each candle, press "Frob/Interact" to pick up, press "Use Inv. Item" to extinguish, make sure the candle is back in place, and finally press "Frob/Interact" to drop the candle. The result shows mistakes and candles getting misplaced.

On the right, the proposed feature is shown. The player frobs to extinguish the candles. The result shows no mistakes and candles are kept in their original positions.

 

Special Thanks

@Wellingtoncrab was instrumental in improving this feature during its early stages. We had many discussions covering varying scenarios, pros, and cons, and how it would affect the gameplay and player experience. Originally, I had a completely different solution that added a special "use modifier" keybinding. He suggested the frob to use and long-press frob to pick up mechanics. I coded it up, gave it a try, and found it to be too good. Without his feedback and patience, this feature wouldn't be as good as it is. Thank you, @Wellingtoncrab!

And, of note, @Wellingtoncrab hasn't been able to try it in game yet, because I'm using Linux and can't compile a Windows build for him. So, if this feature isn't good, that's my fault.

Code Patch

I'll post the code patch in another post below this one so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback!

Player Complaints

TTLG (2023-01-10)

Player 1:

Quote

Overcomplicated and weird solutions. Here overcomplicated solution is mentioned putting body on your back and extinguishing candles. Both requires frobbing them to pick them up and then you need to use extra button to put body on back/exstinguish candle. And for candle you need to remember to drop it. This becomes annoying very quickly. Why can't I just do these actions by simply frobbing them? I don't want to drag body/pick up candle.

https://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152006&page=2&p=2496339&viewfull=1#post2496339

TDM Forums (2021-03-13)

Player 2:

Quote

I wanted to ask how to do it but I just discovered quite randomly pressing enter [extinguishes candles]. It should be mentioned in controls/actions.

https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20842-extinguishing-candles/

Player 3:

Quote

You pick up bodies in the same way, by the way. Just so you know, and don't realize after a year of playing the mod, like me...

https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/20842-extinguishing-candles/&do=findComment&comment=458038

TDM Forums (2023-06-17)

Player 4:

Quote

For the life of me, I can't find anyway to pick up a body. Also can't loot a body either. I've tried every single key on the keyboard and mouse and nothing. The search here seem to focus on single words instead of a phrase or combination of words. HELP!

https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22142-pick-up-a-body/

TDM Discord (2021-05-18)

Player 5:

Quote

I'm doing the training mission, object manipulation. I can't figure out how to snuff out a candle (without [throwing] it). [I've] seen it [done] by others on youtube. I can rotate, move it, drop it, but not [quietly] extinguish it. What's [the key]? Thanks.

https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/844358460497854495

TDM Discord (2023-02-14)

Player 6:

Quote

It does remind me that the way candles are extinguished in TDM is very unintuitive - being able to interact with candles to extinguish them is what I spent time figuring out on first playthroughs and having to abuse nearby geometry to achieve the same result (more noisily) is really weird.

https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075001336820670545

Player 7:

Quote

I agree with you on this one - I'd like to be able to blow out the candles by just looking at them and pressing the "Use" button, without lifting them first. Pinching/blowing... whatever that is; all I want is to be albe to extinguish the candles without moving them around.

https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075002379549806623

Player 8:

Quote

Oh, yes! I always hated that. Pinching the wick of a candle should not require me to pick up the candle, especially when it's so unnaturally difficult to put the candle back where it was.

https://discord.com/channels/148841671751106563/148841671751106563/1075014078952652840

[Daft Mugi]

Here's the draft code patch so that folks who compile TDM themselves can give this proposal a try in game. And, if you do, I look forward to your feedback!

https://gist.github.com/daftmugi/41d0324107e8734f364bb3e50ff00794

1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455)
2. Get the SVN repo
3. Download "r10455-add-frobhold.diff"
4. Apply SVN patch: "svn patch r10455-add-frobhold.diff"
5. Compile
6. Copy TheDarkMod.exe and glprogs to TDM (dev16829-10455) directory

Or, @Wellingtoncrab has provided a Windows build. (includes new frob and new lean)

1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455).
2. Download @Wellingtoncrab Windows build: https://drive.google.com/file/d/13lQig7Yzfc_jovU2zZklxLV1QOKAjkXe/view?usp=sharing
3. Copy the TheDarkModx64.exe binary to your dev16829-10455 directory.

Or, @Daft Mugi has provided a Ubuntu/Linux build. (includes new frob and new lean)

1. Install TDM v2.12 (dev16829-10455).
2. Download @Daft Mugi Ubuntu/Linux build: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j7DoWBKuBAFdVH2Y-2LcYsgdtJNBabmn/view?usp=sharing
3. Copy the thedarkmod.x64 binary to your dev16829-10455 directory.

[Wellingtoncrab]

I think these are great QoL improvements for existing players and have the potential to really help new players acclimate to the game. I always happy to see work being done to improve this aspect of the game.

Looking forward to getting a feel for them in a build!

[chakkman]

I was quite beaten by the (once again...) wall of text, but, actually, the long press frob is actually quite a nice idea. I always found it tedious and cumbersome, to frob and then press enter to pick up bodies, or extinguish candles.

So, yeah, thumbs up for that idea by me. Question is why you can't just put it in a few simple sentences.  I mean, it isn't that complicated, and the change wouldn't really be big.

Edited September 7, 2023 by chakkman

[ChronA]

On  the balance this seems like a good quality of life proposal. No functionality would be lost. The only complication I can see would be needing to make some minor alterations to the tutorial mission.

[AluminumHaste]

Sorry I'm still confused as to why players are having such a hard time pressing two buttons in rapid succession for shouldering a KO'ed guard.

Right click to Frob the body, and Mouse5 for shouldering. I'm like, old now, and I can still do it almost instantly.

 

 

[ChronA]

It's not hard. Nor would it be hard if you had to simultaneously hold down 3 different key modifiers, or enter a sequence of 5 directional inputs timed with key presses like a fighting game combo, and yet I bet you would agree that would be ridiculous.

For any software there is value in streamlining the most common interactions thathas nothing to do with accessibility. When most players click a body 95% of the time they don't want to nudge around the limbs, they want to pick it up and move it. When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out. It doesn't make sense for these most common interactions to require 2 actions when they could require just 1.

That's not to say that this is a obligatory change that will massively improve the quality of the game. You are right that it is a very minor thing, but if the willingness exists to create a patch to change it then it seems like a no-brainer to make it the default. That's my interpretation of this thread.

[Wellingtoncrab]

Whether it's easy to do or not isn't relevant if players don't even know they can do it in the first place.

Not even considering the number of comments I have seen about it, some of which are outlined above, from my own experience I remember being a new player and I played several missions thinking dragging bodies was "it" when it came to moving them around.

To my knowledge this element is not covered in the training mission. This is a lot more intuitive imo.

[thebigh]

44 minutes ago, Wellingtoncrab said:

To my knowledge this element is not covered in the training mission.

It is, it's written down in the book on the table where you get the blackjack.

[nbohr1more]

I am a little skeptical about this one.

I see it causing players to rage in frustration when they try to move lit candles and accidentally extinguish them

before using the candles to solve candle-lighting puzzles like the one in "Seeking Lady Leicester".

Also, mappers may have designed their missions in such a way that extinguishing candles is a timing challenge and auto-extinguishing via frob will spoil the challenge and tension.

If a mapper wants to configure non-moveable candles with frob to extinguish, they can copy what Goldwell and Sotha did.

If we were to include this, I would suggest it be an option rather than a replacement. Players wanting to override the difficulty of missions can choose the new mode but can switch back to the default behavior if a puzzle needs solving, etc.

[wesp5]

3 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

I see it causing players to rage in frustration when they try to move lit candles and accidentally extinguish them before using the candles to solve candle-lighting puzzles like the one in "Seeking Lady Leicester".

This is a very good argument and I actually had to adjust my patch to not break this mission. What I did is that only candles in holders are extinguished when frobbed directly. If you frob the holder, it is taken and the candle stays lit.

[chakkman]

8 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Sorry I'm still confused as to why players are having such a hard time pressing two buttons in rapid succession for shouldering a KO'ed guard.

Possible doesn't mean that it's optimal. The Enter/Return key is about as far aways as it gets from the other keys used in the game.

A longer button press would be a perfect solution to fix this issue.

[AluminumHaste]

10 hours ago, ChronA said:

It's not hard. Nor would it be hard if you had to simultaneously hold down 3 different key modifiers, or enter a sequence of 5 directional inputs timed with key presses like a fighting game combo, and yet I bet you would agree that would be ridiculous.

For any software there is value in streamlining the most common interactions thathas nothing to do with accessibility. When most players click a body 95% of the time they don't want to nudge around the limbs, they want to pick it up and move it. When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out. It doesn't make sense for these most common interactions to require 2 actions when they could require just 1.

That's not to say that this is a obligatory change that will massively improve the quality of the game. You are right that it is a very minor thing, but if the willingness exists to create a patch to change it then it seems like a no-brainer to make it the default. That's my interpretation of this thread.

This is well written, thank you for your point of view.

I do like the video with the candles, as that's also when I'm usually doing when I interact with them.

 

[AluminumHaste]

2 hours ago, chakkman said:

Possible doesn't mean that it's optimal. The Enter/Return key is about as far aways as it gets from the other keys used in the game.

A longer button press would be a perfect solution to fix this issue.

I see. I would never leave an interact prompt like that on Enter, that's so far away from both hands.

In some games where I can't bind if to a mouse key, I would make it E or F or somewhere on that part of the keyboard.

I'll try the patch tonight.

[ChronA]

8 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

I see it causing players to rage in frustration when they try to move lit candles and accidentally extinguish them

This is a good point that I had not considered. Can anyone remember any specific missions that require this contrivance of having the player carry a candle as a light source to progress? I feel like maybe "In Remembrance of Him" used it, and it was one of many factors that made that FM almost unplayably frustrating, despite having very nice art. If there are others that used it better, I might change my position.

The counter argument would be that needing to move an extinguishable candle for light was always a problematic mechanic. If the player needs to emit light, then level makers should give them a lantern. Plus for those rare cases where an extinguishable candle needs to be carried for light, you can always quick-load if you put it out by mistake.  Quick-load excuses many sins....

8 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Also, mappers may have designed their missions in such a way that extinguishing candles is a timing challenge and auto-extinguishing via frob will spoil the challenge and tension.

I'm less persuaded by this argument. As AluminumHaste pointed out, the difference between 1 keypress vs 2 or even 3 (because you also need to put the candle down) is only a few milliseconds. If that routinely makes the difference of whether you are caught, and that thrill of walking on the razor's edge is what you live for, then bravo, you are an exceptional player! But I don't think most people are playing TDM that way, and if we give them this I'm confident you can find other ways to keep the game challenging.

16 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

This is well written, thank you for your point of view.

[chakkman]

8 minutes ago, ChronA said:

This is a good point that I had not considered. Can anyone remember any specific missions that require this contrivance of having the player carry a candle as a light source to progress?

Nope. And, TBH, I can't remember the puzzle in Lady Leicester now as well.

[Wellingtoncrab]

I don't really see a reason this would be an issue in SLL. It be nice to see the feature in a dev build so more players (like me) can test it. Sort of like how we did testing with the frob highlight.

I also don't see a reason why there would be a compatibility issue either. Leveraging this sort of short press/long press for different commands on the same input already exists for gamepads in the TDM controller config. As daft says in his post if the delay CVAR is set to 0, then there is no delay for the additional command and the original behavior for all the interactions is restored.

But again it’d be nice to try it.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Wellingtoncrab

[Daft Mugi]

15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

I am a little skeptical about this one.

I admit that I was skeptical myself at first, but once I tried it in game, I changed my mind. So, I recommend applying the patch to a local build and give it a go in game. It's definitely better experienced than thought about.

15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

I see it causing players to rage in frustration when they try to move lit candles and accidentally extinguish them

before using the candles to solve candle-lighting puzzles like the one in "Seeking Lady Leicester".

Regarding the candle puzzle in "Seeking Lady Leicester" (SLL), I agree that this proposed change will make that a bit more difficult, but I disagree on the reason why. The released version of SLL has a flint in the inventory to ignite them, so accidentally extinguishing candles shouldn't be much of a problem. Instead, I think the reason for player frustration would be that the unlit candles highlight, showing they can be frobbed, but when the player does frob, nothing would happen. They might not realize the candles can be picked up with a long-press frob. @Wellingtoncrab and I had a discussion about that exact puzzle during the design of this feature.

So, what convinced me that it wasn't really a problem?

1. I tried it in game.
2. Players will learn how unlit candles look and behave when frobbed.
3. Like @ChronA said above: "When most players click a candle 99.8% of the time they don't want to move it, they want to put it out." I decided it was better to optimize for what players expect most often and do most often rather than optimize for rare cases. Players already rage in frustration that they have trouble extinguishing candles or don't realize that they can. Another quote from a player on Discord: "I'd even say the "some players didn't know you could extinguish candles by using them" thing is "almost any new player and a lot of old ones too", since I once had an extended conversation about exactly how immersion breaking and weird it was to have to extinguish candles by dropping them, and literally not a single person brought up the fact that [extinguish candles by using them] was possible."
4. During beta testing, the struggle that some beta testers had with the candle puzzle was not knowing about object manipulation. They didn't know about the "Parry/Manipulate" keybinding, or they forgot about object manipulation because they did the training mission roughly 5 years ago and had not needed to do it in a mission afterwards. So, "long-press frob to pick up" is in the same class of player interaction as object manipulation. In other words, the same problem already exists in TDM v2.11.

I couldn't find the original screenshot from one of the SLL beta testers, but here's one similar, showing that the player didn't know about object manipulation:

 

15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

Also, mappers may have designed their missions in such a way that extinguishing candles is a timing challenge and auto-extinguishing via frob will spoil the challenge and tension.

If this is truly in a released mission, I'd like to know about it. We can problem solve for that case if it does in fact exist. I don't think we should concern ourselves with something hypothetical, though. And, I disagree that we should make or keep controls cumbersome for the player in order to add challenge. I agree with @ChronA here. I don't think players are playing TDM for that type of challenge.

15 hours ago, nbohr1more said:

If we were to include this, I would suggest it be an option rather than a replacement. Players wanting to override the difficulty of missions can choose the new mode but can switch back to the default behavior if a puzzle needs solving, etc.

The patch includes the following cvar:

"tdm_frobhold_delay", default:"300"                                                              
The frob hold delay (in ms) before drag or pick up.
Set to 0 for TDM v2.11 (and prior) behavior.

When "tdm_frobhold_delay" is set to 0, candles and bodies have the same behavior as TDM v2.11. As of a few moments ago, bodies didn't quite have the same behavior. But based on your feedback, I updated the patch (linked above) to make bodies behave that way. Thank you for your feedback.

[wesp5]

Am I right that this patch need the game itself to be recompiled or is it possible to add it only with scripts and defs?

[Daft Mugi]

5 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

Am I right that this patch need the game itself to be recompiled or is it possible to add it only with scripts and defs?

The patch is game engine code (C++) and not scripts/defs, so yes, you are right. TDM will need to be recompiled.

[AluminumHaste]

If I can get the patch to play nice with my local copy I can upload binaries here for you guys to try.

[AluminumHaste]

Though I would suggest that you open a feature request bug tracker (bugs.thedarkmod.com) and post this patch there, just so devs can be notified if they don't see this thread,

[Daft Mugi]

25 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

If I can get the patch to play nice with my local copy I can upload binaries here for you guys to try.

That would be great! Thank you!

24 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

Though I would suggest that you open a feature request bug tracker (bugs.thedarkmod.com) and post this patch there, just so devs can be notified if they don't see this thread,

Already done: https://bugs.thedarkmod.com/view.php?id=6316
(Also, included the patch link just now.)

[Wellingtoncrab]

1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

If I can get the patch to play nice with my local copy I can upload binaries here for you guys to try.

That’d be awesome!

[AluminumHaste]

Ok the candles work well and I think I can get used to them.

However, when long pressing a body to manipulate the limbs, you have to continuously hold down frob button.

Also, you Frob to pick up the body, but you Use key to drop the body.

 

EDIT: Binary: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L0GmR5Jn79mGDWXNLzP4bsGzRo-Wnp0j/view?usp=sharing