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Things that could be improved


Berny
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...and makes opening the door more of a challange with guards patrolling

 

That auto-unlock is baby-holding hands...

 

As far as making opening doors a challenge, lock-picking already has this covered and a designer has control over areas where this added difficulty occurs.

 

About the whole 'auto-unlock' being hand-holding, NH said it best:

 

It wasn't even so much a keyring in TDS, it was just 'auto unlocking' if you had the key. The player had no option to select it at all, that's what was loathed. The game did everything for you.

 

Now, a key ring would be different. It was used in a Thief 2 fan mission and people really liked it. Any key you picked up was automatically added to your key ring, but you still had to select the key ring to open the door. Kept clutter down, but still maintained player interaction.

 

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Drop-able is interesting as it gives more freedom, the player that doesn't want to drop them for fear that he might need it again can just keep them. Of course, drop-able keys only solve the problem for the other category of players. I would prefer simply showing them all on the screen so I can look and click what I want.

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To restate (I think this is the third mention in this thread) just to make sure everyone gets it, a sort of keyring functionality already exists in game.

 

Bind a key (mine is 'a' -- left pinky!) like this:

 

bind a "inventory_cycle_group Keys"

 

When you press this key, it will advance through the keys one by one, skipping all other inventory items. Several such groups exist (property: inv_category), and the same example is shown on the wiki. You get the benefit of having keys (or other inv_category items) offset from every other inventory item, and without having them auto-used -- you must pick the right one.

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I would hate to have an auto-unlock if I had the right key among the 6 keys I have: The building where I work, I need access to different areas, and all the keys look the same - we are not allowed to mark them, so I have to go through a number of keys to find the right one. Thats life

 

So then you don't like the fact that the keys are labeled in TDM?

 

This whole key thing is very amusing.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Yes, it also acts like a hotkey to go straight to that group. I have o p [ ] to scroll the groups + inventory then just above them:

 

bind "-" "inventory_cycle_group Keys"

bind "=" "inventory_cycle_group Lockpicks"

bind "BACKSPACE" "inventory_cycle_group Readables"

 

The name at the end is the one shown above the group in the inventory. AFAIK it works on any.

 

It might seem overkill to scroll two lockpicks but whichever lockpick I tried and failed I know hitting that key gives me the correct one and as said it is also a hotkey to go straight to them.

 

Remember to uninstall your current FM before changing darkmod/DoomConfig.cfg

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I think that we are going off-track here. As I said earlier, for me, the point of the keychain is less about the minor inconvenience of having to cycle through your keys to find the right one when you come to a locked door, and more about tidying up a cluttered inventory so that to find my spyglass I don't have to cycle through 20 notes, 18 keys and a dozen bits of bric-a-brac to find it. Instead, I've only got 20 notes, one keychain and the bric-a-brac :)

 

But yes, I need to practice with the keybinds. I already use F1 as keys, F6 as lockpicks and F12 as compass, but maybe I can expand on that.

"We were travelling in the night of first ages, of those ages that are gone, leaving hardly a sign — and no memories" - Joseph Conrad, Heart of Darkness

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I'd like to see an "anti-moss arrow", something that makes some sound when you tread on but is inconspicuous when a guard steps on it.

It's just like to have some rear cover - tripwire and stuff may be out of question, but an additional type of arrow that spreads a "noise mat" instead of moss would be very useful I think.

Until now I helped me with pots and stuff that makes noise that I placed in suspected guards paths to warn me acoustically of an approaching guard; I wished I had some more professional tool to handle that important thing.

I know there are many requests and much work to do, but maybe implementing such a functionality could be quite easily done ?

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"When outmatched... cheat."— Batman

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I actually like the idea that Outlooker has.

 

For quite a long time there was a problem with noise arrows on my TDM/doom combo that meant that if you stepped ontop of a noisemaker it would make a quite loud noise. I often carried them ontop of items into doorways and choke points to alert me when a patrol was on the way, they were quite fun to work with and made for some quite frantic hiding - as opposed to a random "stop right there!" without anticipation. I do miss that unconventional use ;)

 

I guess the best thing would be to add an extra non-lethal mine (an arrow doesn't make sense really, it doesn't need to be ranged) with maybe a whistle or something. However the problem comes in that you want the alert to be 'silent' without looking dumb, a special creaking sound is about the only thing I can think of which would fit in, but at the same time its quite illogical. Perhaps someone else has a better idea... hmmm maybe something like touch powder, damn those inventors! - but I wouldn't want it to alert guards enough to stop the patrol.

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Not a bad idea. We discussed something like this internally quite a while ago but I don't recall if we came to any conclusion we just talked about it. I think it's probably not too difficult to do already. Maybe do a custom moss with a different skin say, brown dried moss, with a crunchy sound.

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I like it too! That kind of tool is really nice!

 

But I have to say, why arrows? Even moss arrow don't make much sense to me. It's like cooking with salt arrows, pepper arrows, etc, unless you're making a meal a hundred feet away from the kitchen, it's really not necessary.

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I'd like to see an "anti-moss arrow", something that makes some sound when you tread on but is inconspicuous when a guard steps on it.

It's just like to have some rear cover - tripwire and stuff may be out of question, but an additional type of arrow that spreads a "noise mat" instead of moss would be very useful I think.

Until now I helped me with pots and stuff that makes noise that I placed in suspected guards paths to warn me acoustically of an approaching guard; I wished I had some more professional tool to handle that important thing.

I know there are many requests and much work to do, but maybe implementing such a functionality could be quite easily done ?

 

 

 

 

ui... such a sound-arrow would be nice. THis is a super cool idea! on hard difficult such an arrow could be very helpful!

 

 

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I like it too! That kind of tool is really nice!

 

But I have to say, why arrows? Even moss arrow don't make much sense to me. It's like cooking with salt arrows, pepper arrows, etc, unless you're making a meal a hundred feet away from the kitchen, it's really not necessary.

 

Two reasons:

 

One is that we already have the system and it seems to me that a tiny change can implement it. I think probably even a mapper can put this in their next map. I don't see any need for a code change. One could even patch existing FMs and replay them.

 

Two is that just as with normal moss there are situations where you cannot stroll along and lay something down. Example: shoot up some dead moss onto a parapet where an archer patrols or down a brightly lit corridor where you would be seen if you went to place it manually.

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Glad you like my idea.

Nevertheless, it would be the first additional gameplay element over thief; until now, Darkmod was more or less "just" a copy.

With the implementation of treadnoise arrows Darkmod is becoming more like thief evolution ...

(Yes I know about the awesome object manipulation, flame propagation and all that already in DM and being a big improvement over vanilla thief).

And let's all try to forget about those oil flasks ...

Edited by Outlooker

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"When outmatched... cheat."— Batman

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Nevertheless, it would be the first additional gameplay element over thief; until now, Darkmod was more or less "just" a copy.

 

what?! :angry: you can't just stroll in here with one decent idea and claim that you thought of the only inspirational idea outside the thief box.

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what?! :angry: you can't just stroll in here with one decent idea and claim that you thought of the only inspirational idea outside the thief box.

Whoa.Of course not. No hard feelings. I just pointed it out here now and, like one or two years ago already also here.

But I hardly think I was the first to wanting that in or mentioning it. It's just more or less the first time that feature has

a chance to be implanted as a regular feature in thief, or A Thief, like Darkmod, I know of, thats all. Has nothing to to with me, really.

Also, I don't see that as an achievement of any sort. Just wanna help.

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

"When outmatched... cheat."— Batman

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:laugh: welcome to the internet ungoliant!

 

But yeah, that was pretty brazen...

 

On the other hand, there is a certain pride here in sticking to the roots of Thief style gameplay...

 

If a bunch of cooks were making French Onion soup and wanted to do an updated version of one they learned from a master chef, they might stay honed-in on the core ingredients and play around with the cook times and ingredient ratios. After awhile, sequences of mixing, heating, and cooling these core ingredients would look like wild new innovations. But if someone came along who was not versed in the minutia of this honing and mixing they might still suggest adding a new ingredient (pickled carrot slivers?) to the soup. Realistically it wouldn't be much of a change from the core soup design and any of the cooks could have easily suggested plunking any new vegetable in. But the cooks have been so focused on capturing the magic of the original soup that they've almost forgotten that other ingredients exist. Another group of chefs that is more well-rounded would never create a such a great French Onion soup like the one these guys have made because they wouldn't take all that minutia seriously...

 

So this is the balance. Do we keep tinkering with the existing ingredients and conjure up a perfected Thief-Fan vision or do we step into the unpredictable world of adding new ingredients and risk no longer being recognizable as the same soup...

 

Thanks for your pickled carrot sliver suggestion Outlooker, the master Chefs will keep it in mind... :)

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http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

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Nevertheless, it would be the first additional gameplay element over thief; until now, Darkmod was more or less "just" a copy.

 

Excuse me? Just a copy? That would be aside from the lockpicking system, the player lantern, the advanced combat system, real-time readables, rope swinging, and object manipulation of course. <_<

 

tripwire and stuff may be out of question

 

Ishtvan was working on just such a system, but he's been MIA for a while.

 

at the same time its quite illogical.

 

I have to agree. The idea is, in my opinion, a bit silly. Anything that is loud enough to alert the Thief (by design it would have to be louder than the AI's footsteps) should also alert the AI.

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Don't forget to use Diego's salt arrows and pepper arrows in that soup!

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Anything that is loud enough to alert the Thief (by design it would have to be louder than the AI's footsteps) should also alert the AI.

 

Not necessarily, it could be a few shards of glass. Maybe it's enough for the AI go "huh?" but that's a price I'd pay, in certain circumstances.

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My point is that the *player* would need to hear it louder than the AI's footsteps, which already have a radius of 30 units.

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I still have trouble knocking out guards. It is easier to just go around killing them all with the sword. Most of them are wearing helmets, which is why it is probably hard to knock them out. When I play Thief 1/2 though, I rarely kill with the sword unless a guard spots me. Should it really be easier to kill than to knock out AIs?

 

I usually sneak/crawl up behind them, lean in, and hit them on the head with the blackjack.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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I usually leave most AI alone entirely, but I'm pretty sure that a guard wearing a helmet in TDM is your queue to not try and blackjack them. I think i've hit a few guards unaware in the back instead of the head and it just aggravated them, even if they weren't wearing a helmet. Maybe thats wrong and i just touched them before swinging or made too loud a noise, but after trial and error, I just decided to not screw with AI, unless they wear no helmet and then drop flashbombs when i screw up (or quickload)

Edited by ungoliant
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