Beta testing 2.12

[thebigh]

I don't get it either.

[Amadeus]

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[nbohr1more]

7 hours ago, datiswous said:

Why can the official missions not be updated via the mission downloader? These are just fm's. This would give us players earlier fixes, instead of having to wait another year. This makes no sense to me.

 

7 hours ago, thebigh said:

I don't get it either.

You'll be surprised to hear but I don't quite get it either.

 

Based on my understanding, there are a few confounding factors that make this a challenge.

1. We did a lot of work to ensure that the "included missions" were made part of the install so first time players would have a curated experience. Moving the missions back to the mission database might require undoing that work.

2. It is entirely possible to add the missions to the mission database while also being included in the installer but doing this will invite a few problems:

2a. What if the user updates the mission and then finds that their TDM install is somehow borked. They might run the installer to repair it and this will revert the mission version. If they fail to update their mission after this revert they might have incompatible save games that cause crashes and confusion

2b. What if a user starts downloading a mission update and at the same time starts a TDM upgrade ?

2c. Users opening bug tickets for a base TDM version due to problems seen in the included mission that are no longer present in the updated one, thus making it more tedious to narrow down duplicate bug submissions.

2d. Players seeing the missions on the TDM missions download page and downloading the package to install in the FMS directory then seeing duplicates in the mission list because the downloads page renames the packages with hashed filenames.

All the above challenges revolve around potential user error and even though it should be obvious not to do these things, we have to compare the above to the vast swaths of folks who are begging to include TDM into Steam because unpacking a zip file and running an installer executable within a folder is "too difficult and confusing".

One thing that we have the ability to do is change the file in the 2.12 installer repo so that if users run the updater it will apply the new mission. This change would not be visible to users so they would not get any alert about it. We would just have to announce it and hope that players watch for TDM announcements.

I am doubtful anyone would want to work on it but I suppose that there could be some way to pass some sort of signal to the mission downloader when included missions have been changed on the installer side so they get a different update indicator.

Still would be kludgy because you'd either be telling the player to exit TDM and run the installer or making TDM invoke the installer internally.

So that is my take on "why" based on my own knowledge.

Of course, part of my inability to "understand it" is due to my incredulity that we need to cater to players who are so below the bar in computer literacy that they would inflict these problems on themselves in the first place. None of this is an official stance just my own take on why the proposal to "let two updater processes control the same files in the same folder" has been rejected ( other than that such designs usually horrify programmers on a primordial gut level and if you mention that any program that does this you will see any programmer in vicinity instinctively reach for headache or stomach medicine ).

[stgatilov]

Some parts are managed by tdm_installer, some parts are managed by in-game downloader.
You mix the two, and you get endless stream of issues and confusion.

As simple as that.

[JackFarmer]

Save/Quicksave and Load/Quickload with turrets WIPs work now, thank you!

[datiswous]

21 hours ago, stgatilov said:

Some parts are managed by tdm_installer, some parts are managed by in-game downloader.

So you just remove the mission from the installer and add updating to the ingame downloader. What is the downside?

For an installer update you do a version check on the installed fm version.

[stgatilov]

19 minutes ago, datiswous said:

So you just remove the mission from the installer and add updating to the ingame downloader. What is the downside?
For an installer update you do a version check on the installed fm version.

Remember that installer works with old versions too.
You install 2.11 and installer will overwrite your newer training mission with the one from 2.11. Switch back to 2.12 and training mission will be deleted.

Also, there is no proper concept as "mission version". There are various things like version, some of them don't exist for core missions.

It is easy to say "just check condition here, then condition here, then here". Such hacking will cause confusion, and the support for these conditions will have to stay with us forever, despite everyone forgetting about it in a few years.

[datiswous]

If you install an older version of tdm you can update again via the fm downloader. It seems expected behaviour for going the downgrading route.

The installer should not install/update/touch fms.

Edited March 3 by datiswous

[wesp5]

I took a quick look at the training mission and I didn't notice many changes in the first place. Some new windows on walls that didn't have them, but was something gameplay related changed? I found there are still a lot of unique items missing in the object handling section which I added in my patch for example. The main issue I have with the TDM training mission hasn't been tackled, namely that it isn't a mission at all, just a loose collection of tutorial areas. Which is fine when you want come back and re-train something, but bad if you want new players to have fun discovering TDM! Yes, the two campaign missions try to do the latter, but in other games the training/tutorial is done much better in a linear fashion (e.g. Half-Life and Opposing Force) or is even integrated in a story (Bloodlines and many others). It would probably be a lot of work, but maybe it would be possible to modify the training mission, so it represents a linear sequence in which you learn one basic principle after another while actually playing a mission that is has a story and is fun! If you really think people are going to replay it, maybe shortcuts could be added to the single areas. Right now all areas start from a central room, maybe they could be connected so that there is one way where you enter a door and go around the whole room to exit at the end?

(If people agree, that the training mission should be changed, maybe we should open a new thread for this discussion.)

Edited March 4 by wesp5

[STiFU]

That was exactly the intention of "A New Job". When you play, you will notice that there are pop-ups every now and then, explaining some mechanics. But honestly, there are so many mechanics in TDM that it is hard to introduce everything in an entertaining way.

[Dragofer]

Some changes were made to the training mission, but this process began while 2.12 was already in beta testing, and it became too extensive. To my knowledge this mainly consisted of adjustments to the messages in order to match the new 2.12 control scheme, addition of a vine arrow training area, some minor gameplay changes as well as major visual changes. A last minute major issue caused the mission to be reverted to its 2.11 state except for the adjustments to the popup messages. The training mission is slated to undergo proper beta testing of its own later on.

[Fiver]

On 3/4/2024 at 6:42 PM, wesp5 said:

The main issue I have with the TDM training mission hasn't been tackled, namely that it isn't a mission at all, just a loose collection of tutorial areas. Which is fine when you want come back and re-train something, but bad if you want new players to have fun discovering TDM! [...] It would probably be a lot of work, but maybe it would be possible to modify the training mission, so it represents a linear sequence in which you learn one basic principle after another while actually playing a mission that is has a story and is fun!

I though something similar and suggested adding objectives to the Training Mission. That would help introduce some linearity into the mission and also suggest tasks to players, where the objectives are listed in order of increasing level of difficulty.