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Add option to "toggle crouch" on key press


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On 6/20/2022 at 1:59 AM, Obsttorte said:

I never intented nor wrote that. 🤨

I never said you did, bud.

By "usability options" I mean things like crouch toggle responsiveness. Not gameplay approaches.

@stgatilovI did some further testing, we should probably  allow players to grab ladders/ ropes while in a crouch position or we run the risk of breaking missions that allow players to climb to a ladder in small space, like a sewer or attic. 

EDIT: Ill do more testing, but I am pretty worried about the effect this will have on missions if we change the rules around when/ how a ladder can be grabbed.
 

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@Daft Mugi, then don't waste your energy right now.
Just wait a bit until some more commits come, then say what's wrong.
Such discussions are lengthy, especially when no perfect solution exists.

I think sooner or later we come to same solution as @Daft Mugi .
I'll review the original patch and see if I can remove the direction-specific behavior but retain the ladder/rope + slide-down handling.

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@Obsttorte To be clear, I'm not upset with any specific person here.

To all,

I decided I probably don't have anything else of value to contribute to this topic, since I would just be repeating myself a lot. So, yeah, I felt frustrated repeating myself a lot. And, because I felt drained from so much disagreement with my contributions thus far, I thought it would be better to not participate anymore on this topic and to let everyone know that. I think it's fine to disagree with my contributions, but it doesn't make sense for me to stick around on this topic anymore.

I appreciate all of the work you all have done on TDM. Good luck!

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9 hours ago, snatcher said:

excuse my ignorance but how do I use this *.diff file of yours?

The first step is to get TDM compiling from the source code on your system. After that, you can use a tool like TortoiseSVN, patch, or svn patch to apply the diff. Then, compile the source code again. NOTE: You may need to use r9920 from SVN for the patch to apply without conflicts.

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I never had an issue with how crouching works. I did notice the peculiarity of being able to crouch on ropes and ladders, but I just assumed it is one of TDM's quirks and rolled with it. I'd actually hate to see it gone as climbing a ladder normally makes noise and can alert guards, and crouch-climbing is the surest way to avoid that.

That said, being able to jump on a ladder to climb it faster does feel like an exploit. 😁

Edited by marbleman
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@marblemanAgreed, I don't think we should change the core functions of the ladder, especially if its going to change the stealth gameplay (probably to some peoples dismay)

 

18 hours ago, Daft Mugi said:

I decided I probably don't have anything else of value to contribute to this topic, since I would just be repeating myself a lot. So, yeah, I felt frustrated repeating myself a lot. And, because I felt drained from so much disagreement with my contributions thus far, I thought it would be better to not participate anymore on this topic and to let everyone know that.

I feel ya there, for what its worth I 100 percent support adding a toggle crouch on release feature. We just need to be diligent about changes to core movement as they can have a cascading effect on the mod and its 100+ missions. You've already shown the path forward its just going to take some time to make sure it all dove tails with the core mod.

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Please Mugi don't let your energy be dampened, I think you did a great job, hell actually, an amazing one because your fix opened up to another bug, which is good because it's been there for a time (at least from what I read, it's the conclusion I get), now that can be fixed too.

I don't think the issue with the ladder should be part of your patch or you yourself, it's just an issue that appeared, it's now for the TDM devs to fix it.

From what I can see, they do like this "fix", I mean, it would be illogical not to might I argue, because...Who wants to press a key just to unpress it to make sure it works? That's notable delay and unresponsiveness, it's objectively a flaw.
People got used to it though, so I dare predict that if a "community poll" is made, most will vote "Don't care".

Anyway, just relax and be proud that you fixed it up, it's now "dev shenanigans" time!

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43 minutes ago, The Black Arrow said:

Who wants to press a key just to unpress it to make sure it works? That's notable delay and unresponsiveness, it's objectively a flaw

If you start your argumentation by stating that this is something nobody wants (so refering to the subjects) you can hardly conclude it to be an objective matter. 🤔

The fact that almost nobody complained about it beeing like that doesn't mean that nobody noticed it. I was pretty aware of the behaviour all the time, but didn't considered it to be an issue but just part of how the controls work. And if a key is used as a toggle, I only tap it and don't hold it down for long. Other users may do it differently and therefore have a different perception, but that is, as said, subjective.

And as you wrote yourself the majority of players don't seem to consider it an issue. So we are fixing something not really broken but therefore open up a can of worms in regards to how climbing works.

 

In the beginning there was the question on why it was implemented like that, and there was the suspicion that it may have been due to limited access to the source code. But after considering all aspects that come as a consequence of the proposed change I think the reason is simple to get an easy implementation of the slide ladder feature:

If the key gets released and the player hasn't slided, change stance, otherwise do nothing.

Pretty straightforward compared to what we trying to do now. That doesn't imply that what Daft Mugi is trying to achieve is necessarely bad, but the question may be valid whether the amount of possible issues introduced simple due to the amount of stuff that has to be taken into consideration for this change stands in a reasonable relation to the issue that should be solved, especially if the vast part of the players may not even consider it as such.

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2 minutes ago, Obsttorte said:

If you start your argumentation by stating that this is something nobody wants (so refering to the subjects) you can hardly conclude it to be an objective matter. 🤔

The fact that almost nobody complained about it beeing like that doesn't mean that nobody noticed it. I was pretty aware of the behaviour all the time, but didn't considered it to be an issue but just part of how the controls work. And if a key is used as a toggle, I only tap it and don't hold it down for long. Other users may do it differently and therefore have a different perception, but that is, as said, subjective.

And as you wrote yourself the majority of players don't seem to consider it an issue. So we are fixing something not really broken but therefore open up a can of worms in regards to how climbing works.

 

In the beginning there was the question on why it was implemented like that, and there was the suspicion that it may have been due to limited access to the source code. But after considering all aspects that come as a consequence of the proposed change I think the reason is simple to get an easy implementation of the slide ladder feature:

If the key gets released and the player hasn't slided, change stance, otherwise do nothing.

Pretty straightforward compared to what we trying to do now. That doesn't imply that what Daft Mugi is trying to achieve is necessarely bad, but the question may be valid whether the amount of possible issues introduced simple due to the amount of stuff that has to be taken into consideration for this change stands in a reasonable relation to the issue that should be solved, especially if the vast part of the players may not even consider it as such.

I didn't say this is something nobody wants, I said that this is something nobody cares about because they got used to it, meaning adding it really shouldn't be a problem.

Also your second sentence confirms my point.

And no, this IS broken, because like I said, if you press a button you want it to have no delay and be responsive, in TDM it is not so. It doesn't matter if it's a "toggle" that you must unpress, it just has no logical sense at all to do so, are we back to the very old arcades where the controls were horrid?
Just because people think it's not broken doesn't mean it isn't broken.

And since you put me in it, how is this a big of a deal? Use stagilov's solution.

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IMO it's overthinking. When I have a toggle function, I press a key once, I don't hold it, so it works correctly. I only noticed it because this thread pointed it out. To me this change is fairly irrelevant. And given how much it breaks, I'd think it's not worth the effort.

Edited by peter_spy
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To whoever has access to SVN and Visual Studio.

I have applied the original patch by @Daft Mugi, except for the code in Physics_Player for automatic crouch/uncrouch depending on direction. And I did not add a cvar, since I believe this change should simply "be or not be" 😁

I'd say it feels good.
Some minor questions:

  1. Pressing crouch on ladder results in crouch indicator quickly going down/up. Perhaps it would be better for it to stay "uncrouched" until sliding down starts?
  2. When slide-down is over, player stands up on key release, regardless of whether he was crouched or not when he initiated the slide. Initially I through it would be wrong, but on the second thought this is better because player can simply remember that he will be standing after slide-down, and crouch on muscle memory if he wants.
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10 hours ago, The Black Arrow said:
  1. I didn't say this is something nobody wants, I said that this is something nobody cares about because they got used to it, meaning adding it really shouldn't be a problem.
  2. Also your second sentence confirms my point.
  3. And no, this IS broken, because like I said, if you press a button you want it to have no delay and be responsive, in TDM it is not so.
  4. Just because people think it's not broken doesn't mean it isn't broken.
  5. And since you put me in it, how is this a big of a deal? Use stagilov's solution.
  1. It can become a problem if it involves the necessity to change a lot of other stuff.
  2. How?
  3. You have issues with the delay, I don't notice it because I don't hold the key down, I tap it. So obviously opinions differ, therefore it is subjective, therefore your claim of something beeing a fact is so, too, making it not a fact, but your personal perception. (Which is fine, but you can't expect others to see the world through your eyes).
  4. In regards to subjective matters this is exactly the definitions, me thinks.
  5. I wasn't refering to stagilov's solution. I trust him enough in such matters to expect his implementations to not be a deal, though.
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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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1 hour ago, Obsttorte said:

3. You have issues with the delay, I don't notice it because I don't hold the key down, I tap it. So obviously opinions differ, therefore it is subjective, therefore your claim of something beeing a fact is so, too, making it not a fact, but your personal perception. (Which is fine, but you can't expect others to see the world through your eyes).

Subjective or not it is a fact that the action should be triggered on key press unless:

  • there are other constrains, or
  • the developer purposely wants it to behave differently for some reason, or
  • it was overlooked, or
  • a mix of the above

Just like frobbing, weapon selection, cycling objects, dropping items, toggle lantern/map, bring up objectives, clearing inventory... basically all of the one-off keyboard actions.

Edited by snatcher

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In my experience games tend to have toggle bindings only apply on key release, never really thought about why but it's the way it is and it's the way that feels right to me! It's good to have options but saying one is objectively better or whatever is silly.

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On 6/20/2022 at 3:46 PM, snatcher said:

The suggestion to have toggle crouch on key press instead of on key release is totally legit since it would feel more responsive.

I think trouble - for the original devs - begun when it was decided that the sliding down mechanic should also work while pressing toggle crouch alone.

I think the simplest solution is to make the sliding down mechanic work only if the up or down movement keys are currently pressed.

I would like to add to my previous comment (above) that another setting that can conflict with topic here discussed probably is the Toggle Crouch setting. I can see how a "toggle crouch" on key press comes with many constrains that must be taken into account.

A different topic is whether the Toggle Crouch setting should exist at all.

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4 minutes ago, Airship Ballet said:

In my experience games tend to have toggle bindings only apply on key release [...]

I give you that for frobbing in TDM:

  • insert the key and turn it
  • press the button and release it
  • grab the handler and open the door
  • grab the item and put it in your pocket

Although "on key press" is the more responsive always.

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I see whatcha mean, but I was thinking less about immersion and more about UX. I think it's something that's carried over from real-world buttons: my PC won't turn on until I release the button, nor will a lot of them that you find in a car's cockpit, for instance. Things that toggle want you to consciously press and release, maybe in case you don't realise you've turned on something that would get hot or drain power if unknowingly left on. 

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If I were a developer I'd probably lose my patience over such drama and get rid of crouching entirely. At least during a beta. :)

Edited by Xolvix
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A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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1 hour ago, Airship Ballet said:

Yeah well my Dad works at Microsoft and he said my theory is airtight so.

I honestly wasn't sure but I went and checked every single button I could fine.

My monitor, speakers, computer towers, amp etc, all activate on push down.
My Toyota Camry from 2009 and my 2019 RAV4 have push to start, and it starts on push down, not release.

My microwave has capacitive buttons that activate on push down.

My Samsung S21 turns it screen on when I push the power button in.

I actually haven't found anything that works when I push in then let go.

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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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1 hour ago, AluminumHaste said:

I actually haven't found anything that works when I push in then let go.

Launcher icons on a smart phone. At least for me, since it needs to differentiate between launching the app and a "long-hold" in case you want to show app info, uninstall, etc.

A word of warning, Agent Denton. This was a simulated experience; real LAMs will not be so forgiving.

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2 hours ago, Xolvix said:

Launcher icons on a smart phone. At least for me, since it needs to differentiate between launching the app and a "long-hold" in case you want to show app info, uninstall, etc.

Exactly

If it does not have a second function on long push, it has to trigger on push down by default

Otherwise those american teens are going to start assuming that guns fire only when you release the trigger 😕

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2 hours ago, Xolvix said:

Launcher icons on a smart phone. At least for me, since it needs to differentiate between launching the app and a "long-hold" in case you want to show app info, uninstall, etc.

Which is exactly the case we have here. The game needs to differentiate between stance change and sliding when on ladders or ropes. So the original implementation makes perfect sense.

8 hours ago, snatcher said:

Subjective or not it is a fact that the action should be triggered on key press unless:

  • there are other constrains, or
  • the developer purposely wants it to behave differently for some reason, or
  • it was overlooked, or
  • a mix of the above

 

Nope. See above. That buttons also in real life trigger something on key down is a convention, probably as it is most often the simplest way to get things to work, like here trigger on key up was the simplest way to get things to work.

5 hours ago, Xolvix said:

If I were a developer I'd probably lose my patience over such drama and get rid of crouching entirely. At least during a beta. :)

Just adding some spice to the soup :D

FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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