Ghosting the Dark Mod

[darksilence]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:32 PM, duzenko said:

Done in svn revisions 9447 & 16320

 

 

 

Finally! 

[Klatremus]

Any way to also list pickpockets as 'x out of y', like loot?

[demagogue]

I think it'd be easy to do, although it's mixing categories a bit.

Looking at that list, I'm always reminded that I picked the word "suspicious" (an adjective) instead of "suspicions" (a noun), when the other two elements are nouns (searches & sightings). I think New Horizon was the one that recommended that the word "suspicions" would fit better, but we never did get around to changing it. But I have to admit, it is more consistent to the form, so it's still worth changing.

[duzenko]

4 hours ago, Klatremus said:

Any way to also list pickpockets as 'x out of y', like loot?

How do we know how many pickpockets there are in a mission?

[marbleman]

I actually like the pickpocket count as it is now. The only reason I go for max pickpockets in Thief is because it shows me how many there are overall, and so I feel compelled to get them all. Converesely, in TDM I've been trying to minimize this number. It's weird how my brain works.

[Klatremus]

Oh I also like to minimize pickpockets, but I'd always like to know how many there are in total. It just seems like lost information not having it in the stats.

[AluminumHaste]

On 7/11/2021 at 6:32 AM, duzenko said:

Done in svn revisions 9447 & 16320

 

 

 

Overlaps with actual numbers in there:

 

[geegee]

I've never ghosted a Thief or TDM mission.  One thing that I enjoyed most about Thief was sneaking up and bonking the guards with the blackjack, hauling the bodies away to a corner where they piled up.  One of my goals is always to KO as many as I can without getting caught - clear out the area so I can waltz thru' it coming back.  For alerts, I just reload when I trigger a full alert.  Otherwise I sit and fume while I wait for the search to finish, hoping not to get caught.  So that's my playstyle and in considering how to set up my WIP (my wannabe FM - there's a LOT more work to finish one of these than advertised in the "hey kids!  Now you can create your own FM!" jingle.)  That's how I've been setting up the first tentative AI pathing networks.

But it's fairly obvious why players who're a bit more adept than me would want to ghost a mission.  I've seen a couple of V-man's videos.  

Anyhow, my question:  does bonking an unaware AI, not setting off an alert, carting off the body so it doesn't cause an alert later on, count against ghosting?   If it does count against ghosting that seems to set hard limits on what the FM maker can do to make a fun game for ghosters and non-ghosters alike, esp. since ghosters want to crank all alert levels and etc to max. 

[duzenko]

4 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

Overlaps with actual numbers in there:

 

I would suggest breaking the damage stats into two lines

[Klatremus]

@geegee: Ghosting is principally not getting seen or heard, and not dealing damage to enemies or property. So yes, blackjacking would not be allowed. There are other smaller rules too, but they only rarely come into play. Supreme Ghosting is a lot more restrictive, where you add no 1st alerts, no removal of light sources, no mossing of surfaces, no triggering of traps, no use of potions, etc.

However, FM makers dont have to do anything to make the game more fun for ghosters. Honestly, its the missions where the creator has not even considered ghosting at all that is the most fun to ghost, since you have to think completely outside the box to be successful. And if you cant, well so be it. You dont have to get a full success to have fun ghosting. I Supreme Ghost and I'm more often than not unsuccessful.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Klatremus

[demagogue]

6 hours ago, duzenko said:

I would suggest breaking the damage stats into two lines

 

The issue is there aren't lines to spare.

The first thing we could do is get rid of the "and", and that might be enough for most all cases.

[Zerg Rush]

There were only a few smaller missions, where I managed to ghosting, I confess, I usually finish missions, leaving many guards with headaches and in the dark behind.

[AluminumHaste]

If I haven't knocked out every single AI, then I feel like I didn't play the game

[demagogue]

Incidentally, I tried design the Stealth Score & Alert stats (their presentation, I mean) to be most useful for ghosters. So the thing is a lot of level 1 alerts are literally impossible to avoid (it's when a guard mumbles about a sound, but they don't know anything is there yet & they keep walking on as normal), and they wouldn't count under the classic Ghosting rules. So I purposefully didn't count them towards the Stealth Score. So the idea is, if you get a zero stealth score, then you've ghosted under the traditional rules.

The reason to still add the alerts is that, if the FM actually allows it, you could try to even avoid level 1 alerts, and the stats page would let you know if you were successful.

So to summarize, if you get a zero Stealth Score, you've ghosted under the traditional rules.

If you get zero alerts period, then you've hardcore ghosted under rules even stricter than the traditional rules.

And of course the number of saves and loads check if you've Ironman'd it.

If anything is still missing, it's tracking if you used any tools or potions. If you don't, then that's part of the hardcore ghost rules. (And if you do, then that's chemical ghosting iirc.) There's not really room to add that, but perhaps, we could add a simple "P" or "T", or maybe "No Potions" and "No Tools", after the word "Alert" to signify that have not used Potions or Tools. (It's also something that could go on Page 2 of the stats screen.) There hasn't really been demand for it because ghosters are good at giving their own self reports, but it's something we might do to give them that signifier for the record.

[Klatremus]

Yes, we are still in the process of finalizing the "official" TDM ghost rules, but zero stealth score regardless of alert 1 count is successful Ghost. Zero stealth score with no alert 1 is required for Supreme Ghost (the challenging version). If you use Dragofer's stealth statistic tool, you can track the progress during the mission and learn what triggers alert 1, which can take a bit to detect.

Use of potions for Ghost is called a chemical success yes, but is still a success. It's not allowed for Supreme, so that stat would be useful for the record, but those who write reports are always honest and good about including such uses. Tools are allowed as long as it doesn't harm or alert anyone, but for Supreme its more restricted, but even there it can be allowed. But i go back to requesting that a total pickpocket count would be very informative in the stats. The load times one is great for ironman.

[Dragofer]

1 hour ago, Klatremus said:

But i go back to requesting that a total pickpocket count would be very informative in the stats. The load times one is great for ironman.

The pickpocket count should be quite feasible to add to the mission statistics. I'd do it by 1) adding a basic property to the base class for pickpocketable items like keys and purses, then 2) scanning all AIs in the map to count how many such items have been attached to them to see how many there are in total.

[duzenko]

7 hours ago, demagogue said:

 

The issue is there aren't lines to spare.

The first thing we could do is get rid of the "and", and that might be enough for most all cases.

Right, simply reorder the lines on the left so that the longer lines are below

[wesp5]

6 hours ago, AluminumHaste said:

If I haven't knocked out every single AI, then I feel like I didn't play the game

That's my playstyle as well :)!

[AluminumHaste]

My favourite is KOing elite guards that you can't blackjack

[wesp5]

38 minutes ago, AluminumHaste said:

My favourite is KOing elite guards that you can't blackjack

How do you do that? I hate those guys because I always have to avoid them.

[thebigh]

17 minutes ago, wesp5 said:

How do you do that? I hate those guys because I always have to avoid them.

Gas arrows are one option.

[wesp5]

2 hours ago, thebigh said:

Gas arrows are one option.

Yes, but most missions don't provide them :(...

[Dragofer]

You can drop something heavy from above, that KOs most things.

[AluminumHaste]

5 hours ago, wesp5 said:

How do you do that? I hate those guys because I always have to avoid them.

A crate and sufficient height

[Oktokolo]

On 7/20/2021 at 3:50 PM, AluminumHaste said:

Overlaps with actual numbers in there:

 

"Damage Dealt: <A> and received: <B>" could become "Damage dealt, received: <A>, <B>"
"Times saved: <C>" and "Times loaded: <D>" could become "Saves: <C>" and "Loads: <D>"

Also: What is it with the mixed title and normal case where "Dealt" is upper cased but "received" is not?

And if we could aknowledge, that 16:9 or even wider screens are the norm now, the whole dialog might get a bit wider too (i assume that font size changes are not an option for accessibility reasons).