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[POLL] Should save rooms be a feature in FMs moving forward?


Goldwell

Do you think there should be save rooms in missions?  

47 members have voted

  1. 1. Should there be save rooms in missions?

    • Yes
      15
    • No
      21
    • Don't care
      11
  2. 2. Should save rooms be limited to certain difficulties?

    • Save Rooms should be limited to expert only
      10
    • Save rooms should have their own difficulty
      20
    • I don't want save rooms in missions at all
      17


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We already have two discussion threads on this, but I wanted to put out a poll to see the numbers of where folks sit from the community at large.

 

This poll is anonymous.

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  • Goldwell changed the title to [POLL] Should save rooms be a feature in FMs moving forward?

As https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21267-mod-save-at-will/ exists, the "no" option existing doesn't make any sense. And you missed the "Don't care" option for the second question.

To every author out there:
If you want to include save restrictions in your mission, just do so. People who don't like them, can disable them via a trivial mod. Do not feel obligated to waste one of the precious difficulty slots for a non-save-restricted hard mode or something like that. Just include it on all the levels you feel it belongs to - even easy if you fell it fits your mission.

 

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3 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

As https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/21267-mod-save-at-will/ exists, the "no" option existing doesn't make any sense.

What?

 

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Just now, Goldwell said:

What?

Well, i made a mod disabling save restrictions. So for whom who don't want them, it doesn't matter whether they are in the mission or not. They just install the mod and enjoy as much saving as they want.

This makes voting "no" to a pure statement about not wanting others to play missions with save restrictions.

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5 minutes ago, Abusimplea said:

Well, i made a mod disabling save restrictions. So for whom who don't want them, it doesn't matter whether they are in the mission or not. They just install the mod and enjoy as much saving as they want.

This makes voting "no" to a pure statement about not wanting others to play missions with save restrictions.

 

The purpose of this poll, as my OP states is to see what the community thinks of this feature. To gather a consensus on how people feel about this feature.

 

If people don't like the feature, then they should voice their opinion as such.

 

So having "no" as an answer to "Should there be save rooms in missions?" is a valid response.

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Funnily, while i am against save restrictions, i am actually pro safe rooms in the traditional sense of game design: Rooms or locations that are safe for the player to rest in for a while before continuing the adventure. There normally are some of these in most missions already and they would be the perfect location for an auto-save trigger.

Would definitely like to see more of these - especially the consciously added ones that tend to be nicely decorated and feeling like a safe space in a grim world.

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I think all that will happen is those who don't like it will be turned off playing Expert mode and will miss out
on that opportunity. It's also a very control freak type of thing to put on a player. I say let the player decide
how he wants to play and save or not. After all, isn't that what TDM is all about? Freedom???

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I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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1 minute ago, NeonsStyle said:

Freedom???

Shouldn't mappers be allowed this same freedom?  If the save rooms are designed well and implemented well, the mapper should be allowed to put them in their FM if they so choose. 

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1 hour ago, Abusimplea said:

Funnily, while i am against save restrictions, i am actually pro safe rooms in the traditional sense of game design: Rooms or locations that are safe for the player to rest in for a while before continuing the adventure. There normally are some of these in most missions already and they would be the perfect location for an auto-save trigger.

I feel like you already get these throughout Thief/TDM missions. You identify a location that is safe from being patrolled, unless you start blasting fire arrows or something, and you occupy it as needed. Possibly with a pile of bodies in the corner if you're not ghosting.

If FM authors want to use the save room concept, they should. If it can be overridden by a tweak or menu setting, that would be ideal. Not just for players who don't want to deal with it, but for testing purposes where you want to save and load often. I saved 106 times and loaded 32 times while beta testing Iris.

Edit: Did anyone bring up saving to preserve progress from crashes or power outages?

Edited by jaxa
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57 minutes ago, jaxa said:

...Did anyone bring up saving to preserve progress from crashes or power outages?

Or phone calls, deliveries, kids, amorous interventions from your beloved, meal times, work, chores, visits or just generally life getting the way of some me time

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I don't know about the wording of this poll. It sounds like a choice between "Save rooms should be mandatory" and "Save rooms should be forbidden".

My missions:           Stand-alone                                                      Duncan Lynch series                              

                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                                                                                                  The House of deLisle                                                                                                  

                              

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I'm personally not a fan of the concept, but if mission authors want to have it, let them have it, but it should be a separate difficulty level based on an existing one. For example:

  1. Normal
  2. Hard
  3. Expert
  4. Expert with save-rooms enabled.

(This is just an example. Mod authors are free to decide the amount of difficulty levels as long as the save restricted has it's own difficulty level, which apart from the save change is completely based on an existing difficulty)

The same for other alterations in saving like only autosaves, or limited loading.

For the rest including a cvar for adding manual saving is also a good idea.

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11 minutes ago, datiswous said:

Mod authors are free to decide the amount of difficulty levels

Wait... you can have more than three difficulty levels? How do you do that?

My missions:           Stand-alone                                                      Duncan Lynch series                              

                                      Down and Out on Newford Road              the Factory Heist

                                                                                                  A House Call

                                                                                                  The House of deLisle                                                                                                  

                              

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I don't think save rooms or any means to limit or disable saves has to be coupled with traditional difficulty levels. It's more like a different type of gameplay and pacing. It's not hard to imagine that people playing rogue likes/lites, Resident Evil or Dark Souls games might want to try this mode on without having to beat the mission on expert difficulty.

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Not being able to save at will creates a lot of tension, which might be desired by the mission author.

As for me personally, I love the tension created by that. Every action you perform just carries that much more weight if you cannot reload right away and try again. Because of that, I always play with a very low "save game frequency" and only reload when I die.

Not everyone thinks this way, obviously. Still, I would leave this decision up to the intend of the author.

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12 hours ago, thebigh said:

Wait... you can have more than three difficulty levels? How do you do that?

Sorry, I thought that was the case.. Maybe not. I don't know why there would be a limitation on this, apart from that the gui has to change maybe.

Edited by datiswous
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I've heard a lot of talk about this so far, but no good reason for why there should be save rooms vs not! 
Personally, I hate the whole checkpoint concept that took away the players ability to save where THEY
wanted. After all, you're making a map for the player. I don't see the point in being so controlling,
unless there's a very good reason for it. I havn't seen that yet. If it is implemented, it should be an optional
thing for a mapper to use or not. If it was, I'd love to see some stats on before and after use of Expert mode. 

I have an eclectic YouTube channel making videos on a variety of games. Come and have look here:

https://www.youtube.com/c/NeonsStyleHD

 

Dark Mod Missions: Briarwood Manor - available here or in game

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/18980-fan-mission-briarwood-manor-by-neonsstyle-first-mission-6082017-update-16/

 

 

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2 hours ago, NeonsStyle said:

I've heard a lot of talk about this so far, but no good reason for why there should be save rooms vs not! 
Personally, I hate the whole checkpoint concept that took away the players ability to save where THEY
wanted. After all, you're making a map for the player. I don't see the point in being so controlling,
unless there's a very good reason for it. I havn't seen that yet. If it is implemented, it should be an optional
thing for a mapper to use or not. If it was, I'd love to see some stats on before and after use of Expert mode. 

It's a choice that players voluntarily subject themselves to by selecting that difficulty before starting the mission. The team has no plans to get rid of manual saving, and the missions can be played with regular saving on other difficulties.

It's a way to force themselves to deal with the consequences of getting busted or missing a shot without having to resist the temptation of that quick-reload hotkey.  It's been described by several players who have played Hazard Pay as increasing adrenaline in tense situations.

Kind of like bungee jumping, which is for those who get a kick out of it and no one else is going to be forced to do it.

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1 hour ago, Dragofer said:

...It's a way to force themselves to deal with the consequences of getting busted or missing a shot without having to resist the temptation of that quick-reload hotkey...

So it's a way for players who want to "Iron man" whole sections of the game to avoid being tempted ?

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1 hour ago, esme said:

So it's a way for players who want to "Iron man" whole sections of the game to avoid being tempted ?

Yes, as well as a way to encourage players to try the game mode (how many people would have semi-iron manned Hazard Pay of their own volition?) and a way for mappers to know that (most) players will be playing by those rules on that difficulty. Like how a mapper knows the player will have limited equipment during the early phase of a jail-break mission.

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10 minutes ago, Dragofer said:

Yes, as well as a way to encourage players to try the game mode (how many people would have semi-iron manned Hazard Pay of their own volition?) and a way for mappers to know that (most) players will be playing by those rules on that difficulty. Like how a mapper knows the player will have limited equipment during the early phase of a jail-break mission.

"how many people would have semi-iron manned Hazard Pay of their own volition?" - presumably those that wanted to ?

Sorry but I'm still not seeing anything in being "Forced", "Encouraged" or not being my "own volition" that makes me want to rush out & play this

But if that's what people want, let 'em have at it, I won't be joining them though

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1 minute ago, esme said:

"how many people would have semi-iron manned Hazard Pay of their own volition?" - presumably those that wanted to ?

Sorry but I'm still not seeing anything in being "Forced", "Encouraged" or not being my "own volition" that makes me want to rush out & play this

But if that's what people want, let 'em have at it, I won't be joining them though

Consider it a special challenge for those who want it. The others can just pick an easier difficulty, so what's the problem here?

Dark Souls would not have worked as well as it did if it was easier and allowed for quicksaves. It is the tension of being able to lose "everything" within seconds when you're not careful enough that makes players come back to the game again and again. It is exhilarating!

Catering not only to casual players, but also to the hardcore-stealth players (like most Thief players think they are), who want a bit of a challenge, is a commendable thing to do in my book. So @kingsal, thank you for that! Please don't get discouraged by this minor backlash.

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23 hours ago, thebigh said:

I don't know about the wording of this poll. It sounds like a choice between "Save rooms should be mandatory" and "Save rooms should be forbidden".

It also sounds like a choice between "Every mission should have save rooms" and "Save rooms should not appear at all." I hope that's not the case.

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